8 ms·

It’s kind of bizarre that I went into this article searching for evidence that Russia is worse (whatever that means) then was dissapointed when I didn’t find it

by Aeolun 2y ago

It’s kind of bizarre that I went into this article searching for evidence that Russia is worse (whatever that means) then was dissapointed when I didn’t find it.

hackandthink 2y ago
The others other us and we other the others. What a stupid world.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
elefanten 2y ago
Concluding "who's worse" wasn't the point of this paper, it was to implement some automated analysis based on old social science models. But, I'm surprised you conclude what you do because the high level findings seem to indicate that Russia war bloggers are more prone to the more extreme forms of "otherization" per the 4 degrees laid out in the model -- e.g. figure 7 shows Russian war bloggers significantly (but not massively) overindex on the 3rd (Villainization) and 4th (Dehumanization) degrees, which are the worse of the two, compared to Ukrainian war bloggers, who only overindex on the 2nd degree (Survival or Security). Additionally, Table 4 shows Telegram channels that are more prone to otherization are more central (more influential) in the Russian blogger network than they are in the Ukrainian blogger network, as summarized by the line: "The results, shown in Table 4, reveal statistically significant correlations for both degree centrality and eigenvector centrality and the use of othering language by both groups of war bloggers, with a stronger correlation among Russian war bloggers."
- ossobuco 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
    I've noticed this too, and it seemed like dumb propaganda on the part of the Ukranians. When you hear someone describing their enemies in cartoonishly dehumanizing terms, it doesn't really increase your respect for them (the speaker). On the other hand, if your town was flattened, your family was killed, and you've been living in your basement for the last year, maybe that's just how you're going to be. Maybe no other response is reasonable. (I still think "orc" is weak though. Something real would be stronger. Even just "beasts". Though, animals are frequently nice. "Monster" is a little metaphorical, but, monsters are also real (in that metaphorical sense). That might be stronger.)
    - metabagel 2y ago
      Orcs attack in hordes and fight battles. It’s an apt description for the Russian “meat wave” attacks.
    - Muromec 2y ago
      You don't want to know what is actually used when "orc" is not enough.
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      The term originated due to their disorganized, unprofessional, looting heavy behaviors. It has gained prominence in the 2022 invasion mostly because of how pathetic they are. One of the famous quotes of the war is “We’re lucky they’re so fucking stupid”. Which is entirely correct. The understanding of the war from the Ukrainian side is that the Russian army is a huge, dumb horde that vastly underperforms for its size. That doesn’t mean it’s not dangerous. But we’re years into this three day special military operation and we still see laughably wasteful efforts by the Russian military every week. Hordes of people running and driving through open fields against artillery strikes and FPV drones and suffering 90% casualties is the canonical mental image these days.
      - 2y ago
- ossobuco 2y ago
  Personal experience, but pro-Ukrainian accounts/channels are much worse in terms of "Othering", be it justified or not. There is a widespread tendence to call Russians a variety of names, such as "Orcs"[0], "Cockroaches", and "Zombies". On the other hand I often see pro-Russian accounts define Ukrainians as "Nazis". The main difference is that Nazis is used as a political connotation and is usually referred to Ukrainian politicians and military members. Russian propaganda carefully describes the Ukrainian population as relatives captive of a far-right dictatorship. Ukrainian propaganda instead frequently dehumanizes the Russian population. - [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(slang) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(slang)
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    > The main difference is that Nazis is used as a political connotation and is usually referred to Ukrainian politicians and military members. Russian propaganda carefully describes the Ukrainian population as relatives captive of a far-right dictatorship. Ukrainian propaganda instead frequently dehumanizes the Russian population. Straight up lie. Russians dehumanized Ukrainians for decades. Khokli, Saloedi (pork fat eaters), chubatie (derogatory remark about cultural Cossack haircut), Petlurivci (reference to Petlura), Benderivci (Stepsn Bendera reference). I can continue for a very long while.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Care to name any more? That'd be greatly appreciated. Preferably in Cyrillic if possible. (As for why: let's just say it's for a science project).
      - wiseowise 2y ago
        Have "fun". The stuff in the article represents just a small fraction of disgusting stuff I've read over years. DISCLAIMER: The link contains vile and evil text, you've been warned. https://neolurk.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BB%D1%8B https://neolurk.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BB%D1%8B
lupusreal 2y ago
Othering of Russians is going very strong on reddit. I keep tabs on this because my brother is thoroughly sucked into it. The degree of othering and dehumanization is so extreme and comprehensive that the people doing it seem to become acclimatized to it and don't realize the extent and severity of what they're doing, like fish who don't notice the water they're in. Before somebody like this jumps down my throat, yes I'm sure Russians are doing it too, and yes I know Russia started the war and Ukraine has a right to defend myself. Spare me the tedious accusations of being a shill for the ""orcs"" and ""ziggers"" (really?), the with-us-or-against-us mentality is part of the extremist radicalization process. Both sides are using it and both can be criticized for it.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  The way I've seen the "orc" term in use ("ziggers" is a new one to me), it's always been applied to individuals carrying out acts of aggression on Ukrainian territory. Or perhaps their active helpers on the homefront (those otherwise engaged in and supporting that aggression directly). Not against Russians as a people. Then again I wouldn't know from discussions on Reddit, as I can barely stand to look for more than a few seconds at any of the political content there. (None of this is in reference to the paper, which of course talks about much broader issues, and doesn't refer to the "orc" term at all).
- rightbyte 2y ago
  I think the tone on the topic on Reddit is due to bots and shills. Not just this topic but almost all topics. There is also a subgroup of the population that seems very susceptible to fall for dehumanization. It is like they go mad as soon as there is a somewhat socially accepted victim of it.
- metabagel 2y ago
  You underestimate the betrayal which Ukrainians feel against Russians, and their hatred of Russia for what it has put them through. It seems like you can’t quite put yourself in the shoes of the Ukrainians, who are fighting an existential war for survival.
  - 2y ago

by Aeolun 2y ago

It’s kind of bizarre that I went into this article searching for evidence that Russia is worse (whatever that means) then was dissapointed when I didn’t find it.

hackandthink 2y ago

The others other us and we other the others. What a stupid world.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

elefanten 2y ago

Concluding "who's worse" wasn't the point of this paper, it was to implement some automated analysis based on old social science models. But, I'm surprised you conclude what you do because the high level findings seem to indicate that Russia war bloggers are more prone to the more extreme forms of "otherization" per the 4 degrees laid out in the model -- e.g. figure 7 shows Russian war bloggers significantly (but not massively) overindex on the 3rd (Villainization) and 4th (Dehumanization) degrees, which are the worse of the two, compared to Ukrainian war bloggers, who only overindex on the 2nd degree (Survival or Security). Additionally, Table 4 shows Telegram channels that are more prone to otherization are more central (more influential) in the Russian blogger network than they are in the Ukrainian blogger network, as summarized by the line: "The results, shown in Table 4, reveal statistically significant correlations for both degree centrality and eigenvector centrality and the use of othering language by both groups of war bloggers, with a stronger correlation among Russian war bloggers."

ossobuco 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
  I've noticed this too, and it seemed like dumb propaganda on the part of the Ukranians. When you hear someone describing their enemies in cartoonishly dehumanizing terms, it doesn't really increase your respect for them (the speaker). On the other hand, if your town was flattened, your family was killed, and you've been living in your basement for the last year, maybe that's just how you're going to be. Maybe no other response is reasonable. (I still think "orc" is weak though. Something real would be stronger. Even just "beasts". Though, animals are frequently nice. "Monster" is a little metaphorical, but, monsters are also real (in that metaphorical sense). That might be stronger.)
  - metabagel 2y ago
    Orcs attack in hordes and fight battles. It’s an apt description for the Russian “meat wave” attacks.
  - Muromec 2y ago
    You don't want to know what is actually used when "orc" is not enough.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    The term originated due to their disorganized, unprofessional, looting heavy behaviors. It has gained prominence in the 2022 invasion mostly because of how pathetic they are. One of the famous quotes of the war is “We’re lucky they’re so fucking stupid”. Which is entirely correct. The understanding of the war from the Ukrainian side is that the Russian army is a huge, dumb horde that vastly underperforms for its size. That doesn’t mean it’s not dangerous. But we’re years into this three day special military operation and we still see laughably wasteful efforts by the Russian military every week. Hordes of people running and driving through open fields against artillery strikes and FPV drones and suffering 90% casualties is the canonical mental image these days.
    - 2y ago
ossobuco 2y ago
Personal experience, but pro-Ukrainian accounts/channels are much worse in terms of "Othering", be it justified or not. There is a widespread tendence to call Russians a variety of names, such as "Orcs"[0], "Cockroaches", and "Zombies". On the other hand I often see pro-Russian accounts define Ukrainians as "Nazis". The main difference is that Nazis is used as a political connotation and is usually referred to Ukrainian politicians and military members. Russian propaganda carefully describes the Ukrainian population as relatives captive of a far-right dictatorship. Ukrainian propaganda instead frequently dehumanizes the Russian population. - [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(slang) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(slang)
- wiseowise 2y ago
  > The main difference is that Nazis is used as a political connotation and is usually referred to Ukrainian politicians and military members. Russian propaganda carefully describes the Ukrainian population as relatives captive of a far-right dictatorship. Ukrainian propaganda instead frequently dehumanizes the Russian population. Straight up lie. Russians dehumanized Ukrainians for decades. Khokli, Saloedi (pork fat eaters), chubatie (derogatory remark about cultural Cossack haircut), Petlurivci (reference to Petlura), Benderivci (Stepsn Bendera reference). I can continue for a very long while.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Care to name any more? That'd be greatly appreciated. Preferably in Cyrillic if possible. (As for why: let's just say it's for a science project).
    - wiseowise 2y ago
      Have "fun". The stuff in the article represents just a small fraction of disgusting stuff I've read over years. DISCLAIMER: The link contains vile and evil text, you've been warned. https://neolurk.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BB%D1%8B https://neolurk.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BB%D1%8B

lupusreal 2y ago

Othering of Russians is going very strong on reddit. I keep tabs on this because my brother is thoroughly sucked into it. The degree of othering and dehumanization is so extreme and comprehensive that the people doing it seem to become acclimatized to it and don't realize the extent and severity of what they're doing, like fish who don't notice the water they're in. Before somebody like this jumps down my throat, yes I'm sure Russians are doing it too, and yes I know Russia started the war and Ukraine has a right to defend myself. Spare me the tedious accusations of being a shill for the ""orcs"" and ""ziggers"" (really?), the with-us-or-against-us mentality is part of the extremist radicalization process. Both sides are using it and both can be criticized for it.

aguaviva 2y ago
The way I've seen the "orc" term in use ("ziggers" is a new one to me), it's always been applied to individuals carrying out acts of aggression on Ukrainian territory. Or perhaps their active helpers on the homefront (those otherwise engaged in and supporting that aggression directly). Not against Russians as a people. Then again I wouldn't know from discussions on Reddit, as I can barely stand to look for more than a few seconds at any of the political content there. (None of this is in reference to the paper, which of course talks about much broader issues, and doesn't refer to the "orc" term at all).
rightbyte 2y ago
I think the tone on the topic on Reddit is due to bots and shills. Not just this topic but almost all topics. There is also a subgroup of the population that seems very susceptible to fall for dehumanization. It is like they go mad as soon as there is a somewhat socially accepted victim of it.
metabagel 2y ago
You underestimate the betrayal which Ukrainians feel against Russians, and their hatred of Russia for what it has put them through. It seems like you can’t quite put yourself in the shoes of the Ukrainians, who are fighting an existential war for survival.
- 2y ago