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So there's this short little book "Food rules" by Michael Pollan. Not much content but seems like the author went through a lot of research. He comes to conclus

by comboy 2y ago

So there's this short little book "Food rules" by Michael Pollan. Not much content but seems like the author went through a lot of research. He comes to conclusion based on this tons of data that all we really know for sure is that people living in these blue regions are living much longer and it seems to be related to what they eat. That it is basically the only solid and stable data point we have. Welp. (I'm overstating it a bit, but not by that much)

mannykannot 2y ago
The one thing that this paper does is demolish the claim that people living in these blue regions are living much longer than average.
- lolinder 2y ago
  I think a lot of commenters either didn't read the abstract or assumed from its tone that it was supportive of the idea of blue zones.
  - jimmydddd 2y ago
    Yes, I happen to be interested in this topic and had previously read this paper. So it's interesting to see how many of the commentors (even on HN) didn't even read the first few paragraphs of the paper or the article. I guess I must do that with articles I'm not previously familiar with. :-)
- mfer 2y ago
  Except, it misses the point and doesn't really do that while being persuasive. According to the Blue Zone researchers, some of the Blue Zones are disappearing because the generations that came after the oldest live differently and much shorter. By differently, their eating, body movement, and other characteristics are different. Looking at the whole population doesn't segment for differences between generation. So, nuance is lost. In some areas, like the Blue Zone in the US other research is finding the people who live there are healthier than the surrounding populations. Then you have to ask, what area do you average over for your measurement and statistics?
  - giantg2 2y ago
    "Then you have to ask, what area do you average over for your measurement and statistics?" This is a big thing that I didn't seen in the paper this article is based on. It seemed like the author was comparing adjusted numbers from the blue zone with unadjusted numbers from non-blue zones. Without comprehensive investigation of error rates and even different error mechanisms by locale, it seems like a poor comparison to make. Comparing life expectancies is better than comparing outlier centarian numbers, but you are right that it depends on what other areas we are using as the baseline or average (and I take it a step farther by saying it depends on what error adjustments need to be made to both data sets). The whole blue zone idea is a bit misapplied though. These population studies find new variables to look at. Then you have targeted studies to investigate thos variables. Discrediting the centarian numbers doesn't discredit the findings on stuff like a mederteranian diet having better health outcomes than the standard western diet, etc.
  - mavhc 2y ago
    Or now better records are kept the incorrect data dies off
    - mfer 2y ago
      There was a study I read about in Barrons that was noting that places a western diet goes the health care costs then start going up. Other studies have found that a western diet leads to more unhealthy outcomes (increased disease and earlier death). I state this to point out that there are other variables at plan than just changes in record keeping.
      - moi2388 2y ago
        Healthcare spending goes up. As you’d expect from a country starting to become richer. Also, please show reliable studies that show that western diets lead to more unhealthy outcomes. Compared to what, third world diets with their insufficient nutrition and starvation?! Furthermore food studies are notoriously badly done.
- giantg2 2y ago
  Not exactly. It establishes that error rates are high in those areas, demolishing the centarian numbers. It doesn't give much investigation into the averages at all. Where it does, it seems to compare adjusted numbers of one data set with unadjusted numbers of another. If you really want to get into the averages, you'd have to determine error rates and adjustments for each specific area, probably by jurisdiction or record keeper, and then compare them. The problem is, nobody is going through that process for the entire world so we just use the face value numbers until we want disprove a specific area and then compare the adjusted numbers against unadjusted numbers. The data is too massive to rigorously investigate. But this whole effort is moot. What tangible benefit comes from disproving blue zone data? These population level studies aren't meant to provide answers. They're meant to provide new variables. Each of the blue zone longevity recommendations have their own studies to either prove (food stuff) or disprove (drinking wine daily) them. So yeah, it's great the errors in the data have been called out it's a bit surprising that the author interviewed is so angry in the article. I guess it's fitting that he got the Ig nobel, since this correction doesn't have any applicable impact to end result, which were additonal studies investigating the individual suggestions/variables, such as specific dietary practices.
  - adamc 2y ago
    If the error rates are high, there is no reliable signal that these areas are different, so how the hell can looking at their "new variables" help?
    - giantg2 2y ago
      Go look up the studies that came out of it. It would be different if these were new studies, but this is all in the past. This new finding of unreliability doesn't have any impact, hence the Ig nobel instead of the real nobel.
      - taeric 2y ago
        Any chance you can point to the specific studies? And the ignobel isn't supposed to be that the research had no impact. Is it?
- comboy 2y ago
  That's my point.
  - modeless 2y ago
    I think a single "Welp" at the end of the comment is not communicating that clearly enough.
- seydor 2y ago
  keeping in mind that they live in countries with higher life expectancy than most countries anyway. Indeed they may not even be outliers within those countries.
twobitshifter 2y ago
Ozempic is showing that life expectancy is mostly avoiding obesity, heart disease, and diabetes, but not a specific magic food. It is just calories, vitamins and minerals.
- uxhacker 2y ago
  No as Ozempic mimics the reaction of the body to certain classes of food such as fibre and probiotics. For most people if they eat more fibre and probiotics we would not need Ozempic.
  - twobitshifter 2y ago
    Sure, but all the health benefits stress not because it’s a better metamucil. It’s because when you’re not obese, you don’t end up sick and dying.
  - vfvthunter 2y ago
    Have a link that explains how Ozempic is fiber-mimetic or pro-biotic-mimetic? If that were the case I would expect to see fiber and probiotics to be associated with gastroparesis. They aren't. Ozempic exists because Americans are addicted to hypercaloric hyper delicious "food" that was engineered by the big tobacco companies that used their excess cash to buy food companies in the 80's. They then applied their research on making tobacco addictive to make food addictive. Modern American food is literally the new tobacco. Ozempic disrupts hunger signals. Fiber does that to a certain extent ("increases feelings of satiety"). I haven't seen anything about probiotics doing that, but I think probiotics are bunk and tend not to read about them.

by comboy 2y ago

mannykannot 2y ago

The one thing that this paper does is demolish the claim that people living in these blue regions are living much longer than average.

lolinder 2y ago
I think a lot of commenters either didn't read the abstract or assumed from its tone that it was supportive of the idea of blue zones.
- jimmydddd 2y ago
  Yes, I happen to be interested in this topic and had previously read this paper. So it's interesting to see how many of the commentors (even on HN) didn't even read the first few paragraphs of the paper or the article. I guess I must do that with articles I'm not previously familiar with. :-)
mfer 2y ago
Except, it misses the point and doesn't really do that while being persuasive. According to the Blue Zone researchers, some of the Blue Zones are disappearing because the generations that came after the oldest live differently and much shorter. By differently, their eating, body movement, and other characteristics are different. Looking at the whole population doesn't segment for differences between generation. So, nuance is lost. In some areas, like the Blue Zone in the US other research is finding the people who live there are healthier than the surrounding populations. Then you have to ask, what area do you average over for your measurement and statistics?
- giantg2 2y ago
  "Then you have to ask, what area do you average over for your measurement and statistics?" This is a big thing that I didn't seen in the paper this article is based on. It seemed like the author was comparing adjusted numbers from the blue zone with unadjusted numbers from non-blue zones. Without comprehensive investigation of error rates and even different error mechanisms by locale, it seems like a poor comparison to make. Comparing life expectancies is better than comparing outlier centarian numbers, but you are right that it depends on what other areas we are using as the baseline or average (and I take it a step farther by saying it depends on what error adjustments need to be made to both data sets). The whole blue zone idea is a bit misapplied though. These population studies find new variables to look at. Then you have targeted studies to investigate thos variables. Discrediting the centarian numbers doesn't discredit the findings on stuff like a mederteranian diet having better health outcomes than the standard western diet, etc.
- mavhc 2y ago
  Or now better records are kept the incorrect data dies off
  - mfer 2y ago
    There was a study I read about in Barrons that was noting that places a western diet goes the health care costs then start going up. Other studies have found that a western diet leads to more unhealthy outcomes (increased disease and earlier death). I state this to point out that there are other variables at plan than just changes in record keeping.
    - moi2388 2y ago
      Healthcare spending goes up. As you’d expect from a country starting to become richer. Also, please show reliable studies that show that western diets lead to more unhealthy outcomes. Compared to what, third world diets with their insufficient nutrition and starvation?! Furthermore food studies are notoriously badly done.
giantg2 2y ago
Not exactly. It establishes that error rates are high in those areas, demolishing the centarian numbers. It doesn't give much investigation into the averages at all. Where it does, it seems to compare adjusted numbers of one data set with unadjusted numbers of another. If you really want to get into the averages, you'd have to determine error rates and adjustments for each specific area, probably by jurisdiction or record keeper, and then compare them. The problem is, nobody is going through that process for the entire world so we just use the face value numbers until we want disprove a specific area and then compare the adjusted numbers against unadjusted numbers. The data is too massive to rigorously investigate. But this whole effort is moot. What tangible benefit comes from disproving blue zone data? These population level studies aren't meant to provide answers. They're meant to provide new variables. Each of the blue zone longevity recommendations have their own studies to either prove (food stuff) or disprove (drinking wine daily) them. So yeah, it's great the errors in the data have been called out it's a bit surprising that the author interviewed is so angry in the article. I guess it's fitting that he got the Ig nobel, since this correction doesn't have any applicable impact to end result, which were additonal studies investigating the individual suggestions/variables, such as specific dietary practices.
- adamc 2y ago
  If the error rates are high, there is no reliable signal that these areas are different, so how the hell can looking at their "new variables" help?
  - giantg2 2y ago
    Go look up the studies that came out of it. It would be different if these were new studies, but this is all in the past. This new finding of unreliability doesn't have any impact, hence the Ig nobel instead of the real nobel.
    - taeric 2y ago
      Any chance you can point to the specific studies? And the ignobel isn't supposed to be that the research had no impact. Is it?
comboy 2y ago
That's my point.
- modeless 2y ago
  I think a single "Welp" at the end of the comment is not communicating that clearly enough.
seydor 2y ago
keeping in mind that they live in countries with higher life expectancy than most countries anyway. Indeed they may not even be outliers within those countries.

twobitshifter 2y ago

Ozempic is showing that life expectancy is mostly avoiding obesity, heart disease, and diabetes, but not a specific magic food. It is just calories, vitamins and minerals.

uxhacker 2y ago
No as Ozempic mimics the reaction of the body to certain classes of food such as fibre and probiotics. For most people if they eat more fibre and probiotics we would not need Ozempic.
- twobitshifter 2y ago
  Sure, but all the health benefits stress not because it’s a better metamucil. It’s because when you’re not obese, you don’t end up sick and dying.
- vfvthunter 2y ago
  Have a link that explains how Ozempic is fiber-mimetic or pro-biotic-mimetic? If that were the case I would expect to see fiber and probiotics to be associated with gastroparesis. They aren't. Ozempic exists because Americans are addicted to hypercaloric hyper delicious "food" that was engineered by the big tobacco companies that used their excess cash to buy food companies in the 80's. They then applied their research on making tobacco addictive to make food addictive. Modern American food is literally the new tobacco. Ozempic disrupts hunger signals. Fiber does that to a certain extent ("increases feelings of satiety"). I haven't seen anything about probiotics doing that, but I think probiotics are bunk and tend not to read about them.