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Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

103 points by NavinF 2y ago

bradley13 2y ago
[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > FEMA is out of money, because they spend $1 billion supporting illegal immigrants FEMA is not in a cash shortage. It projects it will run out of cash. But that doesn’t impact present operations. (Technically, the whole government runs out of cash in December.) And remember: President Trump used FEMA funds on illegal immigrants, too [1]. [1] https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/aug/30/pete-buttigieg/fact-checking-whether-fema-funds-were-shifted-inde/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/aug/30/pete-butti...
  - exabrial 2y ago
    That’s a lot of hand waving to say the exact same result
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > a lot of hand waving to say the exact same result You said FEMA is out of cash. It is not. To the degree it is, every appropriated program in the world is. Also, they're not out of cash because they spent $1bn on illegal immigrants. And their spending money on illegal immigrants is not unprecedented. TL; DR Bullshit comment.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
therein 2y ago
[flagged]
Dalewyn 2y ago
Whoever that "fire official" is, he is clearly a bureaucrat going on a power trip ecstatic that he finally gets to lord over the peasants and plebs begging for help at his whims. If the gods decide one day it's his turn to be fucked sideways, I shall have no sympathy.
- InsideOutSanta 2y ago
  That's one explanation, and it's absolutely possible that you're correct. Another possible explanation is that this is a person who is under immense stress and just doesn't have the mental flexibility right now to deal with integrating a private pilot into what I expect is quite a complex operation. Do I hope I'd react better than this guy in the same situation? I sure do. Am I sure that I would, given the context of what is currently happening? Not really.
yieldcrv 2y ago
What happened to the lady’s husband?
- jachee 2y ago
  Worse than he deserved, I guarantee you that.
shakow 2y ago
Well, looks like the pioneer spirit is well dead and buried in the US.
- nathanaldensr 2y ago
  "You are not allowed to do anything without the approval of the Nameless, Faceless Bureaucracy [that isn't coming to help anyway]."
  - voidUpdate 2y ago
    What would your reaction be if someone showed up to your place of work and just started trying to do things how they thought they should be done, ignoring the proper channels and now knowing any of the procedures?
    - fleabagmange 2y ago
      It’s not a place of work. It’s America. It’s also a disaster zone beyond anything some keyboard warriors need be pontificating on. Ive personally had to deliver diesel into Asheville to rescue family with a two month old over the weekend. You might see some nice PR photos coming out from the last day or two of Chinooks and cargo drops but at the time this incident occurred, there was nothing going on out there. If you didn’t know someone who could help you, or make it to a central place point you were SOL. Here and today, now, even with assets in place it just isn’t enough.
      - voidUpdate 2y ago
        It is the place of work of the disaster recovery people, who have established communication channels and procedures. If there is literally nobody coming to help you, then it may be reasonable to go ahead and do it yourself, but it feels incredibly unwise to do it if there are already people trying to do things
        fleabagmange 2y ago
ggm 2y ago
FEMA override?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jachee 2y ago
[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > ACAB This is ambitiously wrong to the point of parody. One, fire chiefs are not cops. Two, the cops in the story were coördinating with the pilot. Three, the fucking pilot is a “a Class 1 certified law enforcement officer.”
  - FearNotDaniel 2y ago
    I agree with everything you wrote, except: using that pretentious "hey look, I read the New Yorker" diaeresis is a surefire way to alienate the sort of person who thinks "ACAB" belongs in an adult conversation. Though it doesn't sound like you were trying to make friends.
    - gruez 2y ago
      >using that pretentious "hey look, I read the New Yorker" diaeresis is a surefire way to alienate the sort of person who thinks "ACAB" belongs in an adult conversation. Why? I thought the "ACAB" crowd are well educated (or at least like to think they are), and generally like European-adjacent things like adding diaeresis in English? If anything, on the "ACAB <-> thin blue line" spectrum, I'd expect the latter to be inflamed by the "I read the New Yorker diaeresis" more.
  - kuschku 2y ago
    ACAB applies in the sense that ACAB can be seen as a general critique of all hierarchical authority, not just law enforcement officers on duty. It's obvious that the previous pointer did not use such a strict interpretation of ACAB and applying such an interpretation here only serves to poison the discussion.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > ACAB applies in the sense that ACAB can be seen as a general critique of all hierarchical authority This is an unconventional take. ACAB may be meant by some to mean anarchy. But it’s fundamentally an anti-police sentiment. (Anarchy is also an odd philosophy to reach for in the wake of a natural disaster.)
Arn_Thor 2y ago
This makes the blood boil
_djo_ 2y ago
While this sort of thing sounds excessive and unfair at first glance, and the article is written with a clear slant, there's usually a good reason for it. Disaster response and rescue air missions are enormously complex with a lot of moving parts, and allowing anyone with an aircraft to get involved can actually make the entire response less effective. It's extremely common for disaster response and search & rescue teams to ask random volunteers to stand down and stop trying to "self-deploy" and help on their own. First, it's inherently a more dangerous airspace than usual, given the huge numbers of aircraft flying around, lots of low level flying, and degraded communications and other networks. Second, just keeping coordination between all the different units, groups, volunteers, and aircraft in a mass disaster like this is a huge undertaking. There are dozens of aircraft, hundreds of distinct organisations down to local fire departments and volunteer groups, and thousands of people all of whom have to stay reasonably organised to ensure everyone who needs to be rescued is. Which is why as far as possible it's best to use only the volunteers who have not only trained in the relevant communication and coordination protocols but actually practiced them at least once. If that group is overwhelmed then they look outside and bring on others through established and expedited procedures so that they don't jam up the works. This is one guy and his helicopter, which in the greater scheme of things isn't so bad. But imagine it's 20, 30, or a 100 all doing what he's doing. His mistake was only coordinating with some local firefighters, and believing that was enough. But they're not in charge of air operations. He should've approached the relevant air operations cell for South Carolina, or gone via one of the established volunteer organisations for pilots with their own aircraft that have pre-existing relationships with the Air Force and other organisations involved in rescues and disaster response, and are prepared to take in new volunteers and use them effectively.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > common for disaster response and search & rescue teams to ask random volunteers to stand down and stop trying to "self-deploy" and help on their own Agree that the article is inherently (and self consciously) biased, having only one side’s account. But I’m training to be a pilot and I know quite a few people in SAR. The fire chief should have used, if not the pilot, the helicopter.
jdenning 2y ago
Sounds like it was actually the assistant fire chief who threatened arrest (from what I've seen on twitter)
oefrha 2y ago
While the brave men should be applauded, can I vent my frustration about these victims, who decided it was a good idea to stay alone in a mountain AirBnB in the possible path of an incoming hurricane (I won’t even say this if they actually lived there)? It’s not like the hurricane came out of nowhere, there was plenty of advance warning. Good people sometimes die trying to rescue these idiots. Oh and there’s also a 4yo? WTF.
- aaomidi 2y ago
  This is an unprecedented hurricane and humans make mistakes. These folks will never make that mistake in the future :)
  - oefrha 2y ago
    Even a significantly weaker hurricane can end badly for you if you’re alone in the mountains when it rips through.
- sethammons 2y ago
  This is a mountain area with regular residents that is over five hours of driving from the ocean. They expected a couple inches of rain. They didn't expect 20 inches and a dam to break. Nobody predicted this kind of damage. These were not idiots who ignored warnings. These are people who were hit with an unprecedented natural disaster and if you had called them idiots outloud around here you may end up with a broken nose.
  - oefrha 2y ago
    Five hours of driving from the ocean is nothing. I have lived on opposite sides of the world and prepared for both hurricanes and typhoons plenty of times while being further from shore. I have prepared for two recently. These aren’t natural disasters without warning (unlike say earthquakes), and while you can hardly mitigate the damage, there’s no excuse being stranded unless you simply live alone. Maybe people in your area collectively have no preparedness at all, if they all think moving away from a mountain AirBnB into civilization in preparation for a hurricane is outlandish.
0xbadc0de5 2y ago
If you're stuck for days without food, water or electricity, who do you want running to the rescue - the guy with a helicopter, or the bureaucrat with a rule book?
- philistine 2y ago
  The bureaucrat with a rule book, every time.
  - user_7832 2y ago
    Well then you’ll then end up dead and your family will be told that politicians have sent thoughts and prayers their way. Hope that’s what you wanted?
    - philistine 2y ago
      Only American republicans send thoughts and prayers instead of acting after tragedies. Luckily for me, I’m not American and a sufficient percentage of our best and brightest work in government.
      - user_7832 2y ago
        Do you live in Singapore, Switzerland, New Zealand or a Nordic country? I can't imagine any other place having bright folks working in the government (and being able to make a difference).
exabrial 2y ago
The government’s main concern is preserving itself and its budget (for its contractors). I don’t know why we keep having to relearn this lesson over and over again. Your life does not matter to them; their primary concern is their preserving their power.
- OutOfHere 2y ago
  It's not just the government. It's also the medical establishment and the scientific establishment. I wish there were a solution, but I guess it will have to wait until the dollar collapses and the government weakens. I do believe that using a non-governmental currency, preferably an encrypted one, will free the people.
nrjames 2y ago
I've spent a significant amount of time working in disaster response. In the US (and probably elsewhere), you have "Disaster Cowboys." These are people who are untrained but fancy they know better how to do things than people who have spent their lives training for these types of scenarios. Picture 1000 people showing up with their pickups and John boats following Hurricane Katrina. Or, imagine the Coast Guard conducting a search grid and all of these people zooming around the grid in every which way. On one hand, yes, they save some people. On the other hand, they are not on the official search grid rosters, don't tend to take directions well from the authorities, and can cause all sorts of havoc. They can make it harder to find people in need. In fact, when they don't coordinate with the authorities, they end up wasting the experts' time (who may end up covering the same ground) or, when they do coordinate, people in need end up getting missed because the random people who show up to help are not properly trained to conduct searches. Finally, as this news article shows, these folks have a tendency to go to the media and present themselves as heroes. You very rarely see that from the official search and rescue/recovery teams. Disaster response is extremely psychologically and emotionally stressful. You may ride a wave of adrenaline while you're out in the field, but most staff end up rotating out (by mandate) after several days to protect them. Even among professionals, there are a lot of people who end up relying on alcohol to ease their minds. Most importantly, the dignity of the people being rescued/recovered is important. It is all about those people, not about the hero rescuers. They are literally in trauma and can be dangerous and/or in need of urgent help, medical or otherwise. It is desperately unfair to them when somebody untrained, with a "cowboy" attitude, shows up and flips the script. Or, even worse, the cowboy crashes his helicopter and there's one more person who needs to be rescued. Not all people who randomly show up in their helicopters or John boats are like this, but enough of them are to sow chaos. And look at us all wasting time talking about this guy who feels slighted because his unprofessional help was refuted. It's the same story every time. Let the professionals do their job and, at the very least, let them coordinate the volunteers who show up to help. It sounds like a great idea for everybody to show up in their helicopter, but trust me, it's not.
- exabrial 2y ago
  So the main problem is what? Control? 1000 people show up and your leadership skills or ego can handle it? Sure be embarrassing if they outdid the government, that’s for sure. How about this: get out of their way. Or even better: clear their paths. Or conduct your own operations and don’t worry about it.
KingOfCoders 2y ago
I don't think in a crisis you should throw out all laws and rules. Sometimes engineering managers (CTOs) make that mistake too.
- fleabagmange 2y ago
  And sometimes, in a crisis, it’s ok to skip formal processes to get back online. No one is saying abandon all law here, that’s a straw man
dod9er 2y ago
It strange how little news coverage this situation gets in the rest of the world...
- misiek08 2y ago
  We had 2 weeks parts of countries being destroyed by water in Europe. I was in NYC that time and saw maybe 1 minute of info in TV. Sometimes I think that’s maybe it is better this way.
- tokai 2y ago
  Its not that news worthy outside of the states. Europe has their own floods right now, and have had the last couple of years. Its also nothing compared to the weather catastrophes other places in the world routinely overlooked by western press. So no, not strange at all.
misiek08 2y ago
NEARLY HALF-DOZEN! No, it’s 5. Or maybe 4. Great article with even greater drama building style!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
perihelions 2y ago
Reminds me of the themes in "How one ED mobilized his department during a mass casualty incident" (I only found this HN thread [0], but I think there were others). Their decisions went in opposite directions: that ER adapted to a disaster by decentralizing and diffusing responsibility, whereas this air traffic thing (if this story's accurate) insists on decisions flowing through central points of control–which are degrading under high workload. (I'm *not* asserting if what the NC people are doing is necessarily wrong in context–I don't know enough about air-traffic control to know that). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41247841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41247841
aneutron 2y ago
A lot of folks in the comments are acting like this was one of what they refer to as "cowboys". Yet the guy went through each and every hoop to cooperate and coordinate properly with the ATC (which should dispell all the "100 planes in the air" worries) and the local IC (that set up a landing zone for the guy and gave him the frequencies to coordinate). I understand that there may be some vigilantes that would ignore the rules and procedures but this guy with his previous expertise in fire and rescure went through all the stages to help. The local fire chief was either on a power trip, or had a knee-jerk reaction to out of org help (which IMO disqualifies him from being an effective IC capable of using the available resources to prioritize human life). It is very clear that the guy was absolutely ready to cooperate according to the rules that the chief would set, but ordering him to not go back for his son is ABSOLUTELY a power trip.
- _djo_ 2y ago
  The only ATC the article says he spoke to was the Tower at Charlotte-Douglas International, to get permission to fly over the airport. They only manage the area immediately around the airport, and it's not the ATC that's coordinating the disaster response and managing the aircraft over the disaster area.
  - aneutron 2y ago
    That is my point. Any order regarding flight restrictions will be immediately disseminated by the local ATC, and I do understand that the ATC does not coordinate the rescue effort over the area, my point is he DID get the permission and actively attempted and successfully coordinated and complied withe the DR team who set up a landing zone for him. My point being this is a clear failure of the IC (the fire chief in this case)
    - _djo_ 2y ago
      He spoke to local first responders, not to the people actually coordinating the air response. There are different ATCs and areas of responsibility. The only one the article says he spoke to was the Tower at an airport in Charlotte, over 100km away. They're only going to have been concerned with what he was doing in the immediate airport vicinity as crossing traffic, not where he was going to and what he'd be doing there. There obviously wasn't a no-fly zone over Charlotte at the time, so the ATC would not have had to disseminate the info during their communications. Instead, that would be reflected in NOTAMS issued by the FAA.
kkfx 2y ago
Well... I do not know much the US culture but... To my EU taste, if an officer in an emergency tell me something illogical without justification he/she might be sued for attempted omission of assistance, threats, misconduct during a crisis. So he/she better back of or got trouble instead. I se NO POINT in being assertive and even no point in publishing an article, a simple formal complaint with all the relevant charges without saying another word to him.
h2odragon 2y ago
The disaster porn false reports have been nasty; but not as bad as Katrina, in nature or in reach. We've got people repeating (false, AFAIK) reports that "supplies are being confiscated!" but as yet I haven't seen major media saying "cannibalism!" The most pernicious propaganda on this one is going to be "its not worth rebuilding." Its going to take major effort to pry some of the rednecks out of their ancestral mountain homes but there's apparently a lot of people ready to begin already.
k3vinw 2y ago
In some cases wouldn’t it make more sense to use a drone to drop off water and supplies? I imagine private operators could pitch in as long as their efforts are coordinated with official responders. Of course depending on the load capacity of the drone it may require several round trips. Edit: Indeed they are being used and saving lives! Get on it HackerNews :)
jlbooker 2y ago
Here's a good follow-up video from the same news org: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ICG0iaHqw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ICG0iaHqw Spoiler: They ended up dragging the husband through the (raging, debris filled) river after he hiked himself down the mountain, instead of letting the helicopter pick him up. Not 24-hrs later, they were asking for private helicopter pilots to go do exactly the same sort of thing. According to the video above, the pilot had checked in with incident command at the Hickory regional airport, and they were only selling fuel to pilots who joined the rescue mission with them. The town manager in this video is stretching to defend the fire chief.
NeonCrow 2y ago
“No good deed goes unpunished.” “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”
rlfJones 2y ago
This goes to show you that out of state officials in Lake Lure in a crisis 98 % of the time use bad judgement and being stupid. I have tried many times, but you cannot fix stupid. I have been a pilot and pushed it in an emergency. That authority did not have the right to threaten the pilot. The rules are there for safety and are a reference during a crisis. Desperate times require desperate measures. I would leave no man behind in peace or combat, delivering the man to his wife with a stern look at the authority if approached. Getting back in my Helo and leaving for good. What a group of idiots.

103 points by NavinF 2y ago

bradley13 2y ago

[flagged]

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> FEMA is out of money, because they spend $1 billion supporting illegal immigrants FEMA is not in a cash shortage. It projects it will run out of cash. But that doesn’t impact present operations. (Technically, the whole government runs out of cash in December.) And remember: President Trump used FEMA funds on illegal immigrants, too [1]. [1] https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/aug/30/pete-buttigieg/fact-checking-whether-fema-funds-were-shifted-inde/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/aug/30/pete-butti...
- exabrial 2y ago
  That’s a lot of hand waving to say the exact same result
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > a lot of hand waving to say the exact same result You said FEMA is out of cash. It is not. To the degree it is, every appropriated program in the world is. Also, they're not out of cash because they spent $1bn on illegal immigrants. And their spending money on illegal immigrants is not unprecedented. TL; DR Bullshit comment.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

therein 2y ago

[flagged]

Dalewyn 2y ago

Whoever that "fire official" is, he is clearly a bureaucrat going on a power trip ecstatic that he finally gets to lord over the peasants and plebs begging for help at his whims. If the gods decide one day it's his turn to be fucked sideways, I shall have no sympathy.

InsideOutSanta 2y ago
That's one explanation, and it's absolutely possible that you're correct. Another possible explanation is that this is a person who is under immense stress and just doesn't have the mental flexibility right now to deal with integrating a private pilot into what I expect is quite a complex operation. Do I hope I'd react better than this guy in the same situation? I sure do. Am I sure that I would, given the context of what is currently happening? Not really.

yieldcrv 2y ago

What happened to the lady’s husband?

jachee 2y ago
Worse than he deserved, I guarantee you that.

shakow 2y ago

Well, looks like the pioneer spirit is well dead and buried in the US.

nathanaldensr 2y ago
"You are not allowed to do anything without the approval of the Nameless, Faceless Bureaucracy [that isn't coming to help anyway]."
- voidUpdate 2y ago
  What would your reaction be if someone showed up to your place of work and just started trying to do things how they thought they should be done, ignoring the proper channels and now knowing any of the procedures?
  - fleabagmange 2y ago
    It’s not a place of work. It’s America. It’s also a disaster zone beyond anything some keyboard warriors need be pontificating on. Ive personally had to deliver diesel into Asheville to rescue family with a two month old over the weekend. You might see some nice PR photos coming out from the last day or two of Chinooks and cargo drops but at the time this incident occurred, there was nothing going on out there. If you didn’t know someone who could help you, or make it to a central place point you were SOL. Here and today, now, even with assets in place it just isn’t enough.
    - voidUpdate 2y ago
      It is the place of work of the disaster recovery people, who have established communication channels and procedures. If there is literally nobody coming to help you, then it may be reasonable to go ahead and do it yourself, but it feels incredibly unwise to do it if there are already people trying to do things
      - fleabagmange 2y ago

ggm 2y ago

FEMA override?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

jachee 2y ago

[flagged]

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> ACAB This is ambitiously wrong to the point of parody. One, fire chiefs are not cops. Two, the cops in the story were coördinating with the pilot. Three, the fucking pilot is a “a Class 1 certified law enforcement officer.”
- FearNotDaniel 2y ago
  I agree with everything you wrote, except: using that pretentious "hey look, I read the New Yorker" diaeresis is a surefire way to alienate the sort of person who thinks "ACAB" belongs in an adult conversation. Though it doesn't sound like you were trying to make friends.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >using that pretentious "hey look, I read the New Yorker" diaeresis is a surefire way to alienate the sort of person who thinks "ACAB" belongs in an adult conversation. Why? I thought the "ACAB" crowd are well educated (or at least like to think they are), and generally like European-adjacent things like adding diaeresis in English? If anything, on the "ACAB <-> thin blue line" spectrum, I'd expect the latter to be inflamed by the "I read the New Yorker diaeresis" more.
- kuschku 2y ago
  ACAB applies in the sense that ACAB can be seen as a general critique of all hierarchical authority, not just law enforcement officers on duty. It's obvious that the previous pointer did not use such a strict interpretation of ACAB and applying such an interpretation here only serves to poison the discussion.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > ACAB applies in the sense that ACAB can be seen as a general critique of all hierarchical authority This is an unconventional take. ACAB may be meant by some to mean anarchy. But it’s fundamentally an anti-police sentiment. (Anarchy is also an odd philosophy to reach for in the wake of a natural disaster.)

Arn_Thor 2y ago

This makes the blood boil

_djo_ 2y ago

While this sort of thing sounds excessive and unfair at first glance, and the article is written with a clear slant, there's usually a good reason for it. Disaster response and rescue air missions are enormously complex with a lot of moving parts, and allowing anyone with an aircraft to get involved can actually make the entire response less effective. It's extremely common for disaster response and search & rescue teams to ask random volunteers to stand down and stop trying to "self-deploy" and help on their own. First, it's inherently a more dangerous airspace than usual, given the huge numbers of aircraft flying around, lots of low level flying, and degraded communications and other networks. Second, just keeping coordination between all the different units, groups, volunteers, and aircraft in a mass disaster like this is a huge undertaking. There are dozens of aircraft, hundreds of distinct organisations down to local fire departments and volunteer groups, and thousands of people all of whom have to stay reasonably organised to ensure everyone who needs to be rescued is. Which is why as far as possible it's best to use only the volunteers who have not only trained in the relevant communication and coordination protocols but actually practiced them at least once. If that group is overwhelmed then they look outside and bring on others through established and expedited procedures so that they don't jam up the works. This is one guy and his helicopter, which in the greater scheme of things isn't so bad. But imagine it's 20, 30, or a 100 all doing what he's doing. His mistake was only coordinating with some local firefighters, and believing that was enough. But they're not in charge of air operations. He should've approached the relevant air operations cell for South Carolina, or gone via one of the established volunteer organisations for pilots with their own aircraft that have pre-existing relationships with the Air Force and other organisations involved in rescues and disaster response, and are prepared to take in new volunteers and use them effectively.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> common for disaster response and search & rescue teams to ask random volunteers to stand down and stop trying to "self-deploy" and help on their own Agree that the article is inherently (and self consciously) biased, having only one side’s account. But I’m training to be a pilot and I know quite a few people in SAR. The fire chief should have used, if not the pilot, the helicopter.

jdenning 2y ago

Sounds like it was actually the assistant fire chief who threatened arrest (from what I've seen on twitter)

oefrha 2y ago

While the brave men should be applauded, can I vent my frustration about these victims, who decided it was a good idea to stay alone in a mountain AirBnB in the possible path of an incoming hurricane (I won’t even say this if they actually lived there)? It’s not like the hurricane came out of nowhere, there was plenty of advance warning. Good people sometimes die trying to rescue these idiots. Oh and there’s also a 4yo? WTF.

aaomidi 2y ago
This is an unprecedented hurricane and humans make mistakes. These folks will never make that mistake in the future :)
- oefrha 2y ago
  Even a significantly weaker hurricane can end badly for you if you’re alone in the mountains when it rips through.
sethammons 2y ago
This is a mountain area with regular residents that is over five hours of driving from the ocean. They expected a couple inches of rain. They didn't expect 20 inches and a dam to break. Nobody predicted this kind of damage. These were not idiots who ignored warnings. These are people who were hit with an unprecedented natural disaster and if you had called them idiots outloud around here you may end up with a broken nose.
- oefrha 2y ago
  Five hours of driving from the ocean is nothing. I have lived on opposite sides of the world and prepared for both hurricanes and typhoons plenty of times while being further from shore. I have prepared for two recently. These aren’t natural disasters without warning (unlike say earthquakes), and while you can hardly mitigate the damage, there’s no excuse being stranded unless you simply live alone. Maybe people in your area collectively have no preparedness at all, if they all think moving away from a mountain AirBnB into civilization in preparation for a hurricane is outlandish.

0xbadc0de5 2y ago

If you're stuck for days without food, water or electricity, who do you want running to the rescue - the guy with a helicopter, or the bureaucrat with a rule book?

philistine 2y ago
The bureaucrat with a rule book, every time.
- user_7832 2y ago
  Well then you’ll then end up dead and your family will be told that politicians have sent thoughts and prayers their way. Hope that’s what you wanted?
  - philistine 2y ago
    Only American republicans send thoughts and prayers instead of acting after tragedies. Luckily for me, I’m not American and a sufficient percentage of our best and brightest work in government.
    - user_7832 2y ago
      Do you live in Singapore, Switzerland, New Zealand or a Nordic country? I can't imagine any other place having bright folks working in the government (and being able to make a difference).

exabrial 2y ago

The government’s main concern is preserving itself and its budget (for its contractors). I don’t know why we keep having to relearn this lesson over and over again. Your life does not matter to them; their primary concern is their preserving their power.

OutOfHere 2y ago
It's not just the government. It's also the medical establishment and the scientific establishment. I wish there were a solution, but I guess it will have to wait until the dollar collapses and the government weakens. I do believe that using a non-governmental currency, preferably an encrypted one, will free the people.

nrjames 2y ago

I've spent a significant amount of time working in disaster response. In the US (and probably elsewhere), you have "Disaster Cowboys." These are people who are untrained but fancy they know better how to do things than people who have spent their lives training for these types of scenarios. Picture 1000 people showing up with their pickups and John boats following Hurricane Katrina. Or, imagine the Coast Guard conducting a search grid and all of these people zooming around the grid in every which way. On one hand, yes, they save some people. On the other hand, they are not on the official search grid rosters, don't tend to take directions well from the authorities, and can cause all sorts of havoc. They can make it harder to find people in need. In fact, when they don't coordinate with the authorities, they end up wasting the experts' time (who may end up covering the same ground) or, when they do coordinate, people in need end up getting missed because the random people who show up to help are not properly trained to conduct searches. Finally, as this news article shows, these folks have a tendency to go to the media and present themselves as heroes. You very rarely see that from the official search and rescue/recovery teams. Disaster response is extremely psychologically and emotionally stressful. You may ride a wave of adrenaline while you're out in the field, but most staff end up rotating out (by mandate) after several days to protect them. Even among professionals, there are a lot of people who end up relying on alcohol to ease their minds. Most importantly, the dignity of the people being rescued/recovered is important. It is all about those people, not about the hero rescuers. They are literally in trauma and can be dangerous and/or in need of urgent help, medical or otherwise. It is desperately unfair to them when somebody untrained, with a "cowboy" attitude, shows up and flips the script. Or, even worse, the cowboy crashes his helicopter and there's one more person who needs to be rescued. Not all people who randomly show up in their helicopters or John boats are like this, but enough of them are to sow chaos. And look at us all wasting time talking about this guy who feels slighted because his unprofessional help was refuted. It's the same story every time. Let the professionals do their job and, at the very least, let them coordinate the volunteers who show up to help. It sounds like a great idea for everybody to show up in their helicopter, but trust me, it's not.

exabrial 2y ago
So the main problem is what? Control? 1000 people show up and your leadership skills or ego can handle it? Sure be embarrassing if they outdid the government, that’s for sure. How about this: get out of their way. Or even better: clear their paths. Or conduct your own operations and don’t worry about it.

KingOfCoders 2y ago

I don't think in a crisis you should throw out all laws and rules. Sometimes engineering managers (CTOs) make that mistake too.

fleabagmange 2y ago
And sometimes, in a crisis, it’s ok to skip formal processes to get back online. No one is saying abandon all law here, that’s a straw man

dod9er 2y ago

It strange how little news coverage this situation gets in the rest of the world...

misiek08 2y ago
We had 2 weeks parts of countries being destroyed by water in Europe. I was in NYC that time and saw maybe 1 minute of info in TV. Sometimes I think that’s maybe it is better this way.
tokai 2y ago
Its not that news worthy outside of the states. Europe has their own floods right now, and have had the last couple of years. Its also nothing compared to the weather catastrophes other places in the world routinely overlooked by western press. So no, not strange at all.

misiek08 2y ago

NEARLY HALF-DOZEN! No, it’s 5. Or maybe 4. Great article with even greater drama building style!

deleted 2y ago

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perihelions 2y ago

Reminds me of the themes in "How one ED mobilized his department during a mass casualty incident" (I only found this HN thread [0], but I think there were others). Their decisions went in opposite directions: that ER adapted to a disaster by decentralizing and diffusing responsibility, whereas this air traffic thing (if this story's accurate) insists on decisions flowing through central points of control–which are degrading under high workload. (I'm *not* asserting if what the NC people are doing is necessarily wrong in context–I don't know enough about air-traffic control to know that). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41247841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41247841

aneutron 2y ago

A lot of folks in the comments are acting like this was one of what they refer to as "cowboys". Yet the guy went through each and every hoop to cooperate and coordinate properly with the ATC (which should dispell all the "100 planes in the air" worries) and the local IC (that set up a landing zone for the guy and gave him the frequencies to coordinate). I understand that there may be some vigilantes that would ignore the rules and procedures but this guy with his previous expertise in fire and rescure went through all the stages to help. The local fire chief was either on a power trip, or had a knee-jerk reaction to out of org help (which IMO disqualifies him from being an effective IC capable of using the available resources to prioritize human life). It is very clear that the guy was absolutely ready to cooperate according to the rules that the chief would set, but ordering him to not go back for his son is ABSOLUTELY a power trip.

_djo_ 2y ago
The only ATC the article says he spoke to was the Tower at Charlotte-Douglas International, to get permission to fly over the airport. They only manage the area immediately around the airport, and it's not the ATC that's coordinating the disaster response and managing the aircraft over the disaster area.
- aneutron 2y ago
  That is my point. Any order regarding flight restrictions will be immediately disseminated by the local ATC, and I do understand that the ATC does not coordinate the rescue effort over the area, my point is he DID get the permission and actively attempted and successfully coordinated and complied withe the DR team who set up a landing zone for him. My point being this is a clear failure of the IC (the fire chief in this case)
  - _djo_ 2y ago
    He spoke to local first responders, not to the people actually coordinating the air response. There are different ATCs and areas of responsibility. The only one the article says he spoke to was the Tower at an airport in Charlotte, over 100km away. They're only going to have been concerned with what he was doing in the immediate airport vicinity as crossing traffic, not where he was going to and what he'd be doing there. There obviously wasn't a no-fly zone over Charlotte at the time, so the ATC would not have had to disseminate the info during their communications. Instead, that would be reflected in NOTAMS issued by the FAA.

kkfx 2y ago

Well... I do not know much the US culture but... To my EU taste, if an officer in an emergency tell me something illogical without justification he/she might be sued for attempted omission of assistance, threats, misconduct during a crisis. So he/she better back of or got trouble instead. I se NO POINT in being assertive and even no point in publishing an article, a simple formal complaint with all the relevant charges without saying another word to him.

h2odragon 2y ago

The disaster porn false reports have been nasty; but not as bad as Katrina, in nature or in reach. We've got people repeating (false, AFAIK) reports that "supplies are being confiscated!" but as yet I haven't seen major media saying "cannibalism!" The most pernicious propaganda on this one is going to be "its not worth rebuilding." Its going to take major effort to pry some of the rednecks out of their ancestral mountain homes but there's apparently a lot of people ready to begin already.

k3vinw 2y ago

In some cases wouldn’t it make more sense to use a drone to drop off water and supplies? I imagine private operators could pitch in as long as their efforts are coordinated with official responders. Of course depending on the load capacity of the drone it may require several round trips. Edit: Indeed they are being used and saving lives! Get on it HackerNews :)

jlbooker 2y ago

Here's a good follow-up video from the same news org: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ICG0iaHqw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ICG0iaHqw Spoiler: They ended up dragging the husband through the (raging, debris filled) river after he hiked himself down the mountain, instead of letting the helicopter pick him up. Not 24-hrs later, they were asking for private helicopter pilots to go do exactly the same sort of thing. According to the video above, the pilot had checked in with incident command at the Hickory regional airport, and they were only selling fuel to pilots who joined the rescue mission with them. The town manager in this video is stretching to defend the fire chief.

NeonCrow 2y ago

“No good deed goes unpunished.” “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”

rlfJones 2y ago

This goes to show you that out of state officials in Lake Lure in a crisis 98 % of the time use bad judgement and being stupid. I have tried many times, but you cannot fix stupid. I have been a pilot and pushed it in an emergency. That authority did not have the right to threaten the pilot. The rules are there for safety and are a reference during a crisis. Desperate times require desperate measures. I would leave no man behind in peace or combat, delivering the man to his wife with a stern look at the authority if approached. Getting back in my Helo and leaving for good. What a group of idiots.