4 ms·

NSO Should Lose Spyware Case for Discovery Violations, Meta Says

66 points by jmsflknr 2y ago

excalibur 2y ago
I want the option where NSO loses but the money goes to the actual victims instead of Zuckerberg
- h4x0rr 2y ago
  Lots of those victims are dead
  - erikerikson 2y ago
    By this logic, maybe we shouldn't charge murders because the murdered party is not around to see justice? Every victim has family or friends or things they cared about publicly (usually the public presence is the reason they became a victim). Justice can be found in many ways.
    - gomerspiles 2y ago
      We are seeing justice from the many ways. There aren't many people who appreciate waiting on justice in crimes that are ruining a lot to steal a little.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > want the option where NSO loses but the money goes to the actual victims instead of Zuckerberg "Punishment has five recognized purposes: deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution" [1]. You're describing restitution. We're still on deterrence and incapacitation, i.e. fining NSO so it stays away from America and possibly putting it out of business so it can't keep selling its wares. [1] https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purposes-of-punishment/ https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purpose...
hypeatei 2y ago
Wait Meta is suing the NSO group in U.S. courts? I thought they were based in Israel and basically have protection from the Israeli government. > the court warned it would not feel reluctant to impose sanctions Ah okay so basically we're doing the ol' "going on your permanent record" treatment. That means nothing to a state sanctioned malware team.
- stepupmakeup 2y ago
  It's always funny when <american government agency> announces "sanctions" on north korean, chinese, russian state sponsored hacking groups. What are you going to do, block them from using AWS?
  - hypeatei 2y ago
    Exactly, it just results in misguided measures like IP-range bans. Yeah, sure, that's going to stop a group dedicated to finding zero days and other technical flaws.
  - mdhb 2y ago
    There is often a sizeable non public component to some of these things that is firmly more in the gray zone. For example knowing that there are few legal options to deal with Russian groups who were doing ransomware attacks on hospitals there was recently a public name and shame campaign that lots of people had this exact kind of response to but the actual way they were looking to impose costs on these groups was by making sure that other crime groups in the country were very aware of who these people were, that they didn’t have any meaningful protection but they did have a lot of crypto money that would be very easy to rob from them. The idea was to put them in harms way since as the theory goes it would cause others to think twice. Tactics differ obviously depending on the target and what options make sense but this was for a non state backed group who didn’t have anything other than a cyber component to them.
  - lesuorac 2y ago
    Uh, arrest them when they show up in a country with an extradition treaty? Do you think relatively highly paid individuals don't take foreign vacations? > [1] That was true for the men released Thursday. Both were arrested on vacation in countries that cooperate with the U.S. Klyushin was arrested in Sion, Switzerland — four people alleged to be co-conspirators remain at large — and Seleznev in Maldives. [1]: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/us-releases-russian-hackers-evan-gershkovich-prisoner-swap-rcna164746 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/us-releases-russian-ha...
bastard_op 2y ago
I don't normally say this ever, but good for Meta. I'd love to see NSO banned from US business as a scourge, but... NSO, Cellbrite, all the good spyware/malware used by governments and connected rich come from Israel companies. The FBI, CIA, and local PD's certainly keep them on speed dial when they need into someone's phone for a legal matter like someone shooting at an orange on stage. Like Diddy said, can't stop, won't stop - cops still need an easy instahack button, and they provide them readily to the highest bidders. Lots of Israeli "Gartner-rated" "Enterprise Security" vendors like Checkpoint, Radware, Cato Networks, etc too. You wonder if they sell the sickness in one hand, and the cure in another.
- cedws 2y ago
  NSO ban? It should be an Israel sanction. NSO Group has committed crimes against the people of the West and directly aided their enemies. The Israeli government is complicit in this.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    Sanctions against Israel? It would be a miracle to even get a slight reduction to the money and weapons the American government gifts to them every year.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    If you sanction Israel for Wassenar Agreement violations (which it never signed), then the US has to do the same to similar NATO and NATO+ allies like Singapore, the UAE, all of ASEAN, PRC, and a number of Wassenar Agreement members like Turkiye, India, and South Korea. This is why arms control agreements are basically useless.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > FBI, CIA, and local PD's certainly keep them on speed dial NSO was sanctioned by Commerce in 2021. A local PD doing business with them would be akin to doing business with a sanctioned Russian or Iranian entity.
- alephnerd 2y ago

66 points by jmsflknr 2y ago

excalibur 2y ago

I want the option where NSO loses but the money goes to the actual victims instead of Zuckerberg

h4x0rr 2y ago
Lots of those victims are dead
- erikerikson 2y ago
  By this logic, maybe we shouldn't charge murders because the murdered party is not around to see justice? Every victim has family or friends or things they cared about publicly (usually the public presence is the reason they became a victim). Justice can be found in many ways.
  - gomerspiles 2y ago
    We are seeing justice from the many ways. There aren't many people who appreciate waiting on justice in crimes that are ruining a lot to steal a little.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> want the option where NSO loses but the money goes to the actual victims instead of Zuckerberg "Punishment has five recognized purposes: deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution" [1]. You're describing restitution. We're still on deterrence and incapacitation, i.e. fining NSO so it stays away from America and possibly putting it out of business so it can't keep selling its wares. [1] https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purposes-of-punishment/ https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purpose...

hypeatei 2y ago

Wait Meta is suing the NSO group in U.S. courts? I thought they were based in Israel and basically have protection from the Israeli government. > the court warned it would not feel reluctant to impose sanctions Ah okay so basically we're doing the ol' "going on your permanent record" treatment. That means nothing to a state sanctioned malware team.

stepupmakeup 2y ago
It's always funny when <american government agency> announces "sanctions" on north korean, chinese, russian state sponsored hacking groups. What are you going to do, block them from using AWS?
- hypeatei 2y ago
  Exactly, it just results in misguided measures like IP-range bans. Yeah, sure, that's going to stop a group dedicated to finding zero days and other technical flaws.
- mdhb 2y ago
  There is often a sizeable non public component to some of these things that is firmly more in the gray zone. For example knowing that there are few legal options to deal with Russian groups who were doing ransomware attacks on hospitals there was recently a public name and shame campaign that lots of people had this exact kind of response to but the actual way they were looking to impose costs on these groups was by making sure that other crime groups in the country were very aware of who these people were, that they didn’t have any meaningful protection but they did have a lot of crypto money that would be very easy to rob from them. The idea was to put them in harms way since as the theory goes it would cause others to think twice. Tactics differ obviously depending on the target and what options make sense but this was for a non state backed group who didn’t have anything other than a cyber component to them.
- lesuorac 2y ago
  Uh, arrest them when they show up in a country with an extradition treaty? Do you think relatively highly paid individuals don't take foreign vacations? > [1] That was true for the men released Thursday. Both were arrested on vacation in countries that cooperate with the U.S. Klyushin was arrested in Sion, Switzerland — four people alleged to be co-conspirators remain at large — and Seleznev in Maldives. [1]: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/us-releases-russian-hackers-evan-gershkovich-prisoner-swap-rcna164746 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/us-releases-russian-ha...

bastard_op 2y ago

I don't normally say this ever, but good for Meta. I'd love to see NSO banned from US business as a scourge, but... NSO, Cellbrite, all the good spyware/malware used by governments and connected rich come from Israel companies. The FBI, CIA, and local PD's certainly keep them on speed dial when they need into someone's phone for a legal matter like someone shooting at an orange on stage. Like Diddy said, can't stop, won't stop - cops still need an easy instahack button, and they provide them readily to the highest bidders. Lots of Israeli "Gartner-rated" "Enterprise Security" vendors like Checkpoint, Radware, Cato Networks, etc too. You wonder if they sell the sickness in one hand, and the cure in another.

cedws 2y ago
NSO ban? It should be an Israel sanction. NSO Group has committed crimes against the people of the West and directly aided their enemies. The Israeli government is complicit in this.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Sanctions against Israel? It would be a miracle to even get a slight reduction to the money and weapons the American government gifts to them every year.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  If you sanction Israel for Wassenar Agreement violations (which it never signed), then the US has to do the same to similar NATO and NATO+ allies like Singapore, the UAE, all of ASEAN, PRC, and a number of Wassenar Agreement members like Turkiye, India, and South Korea. This is why arms control agreements are basically useless.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> FBI, CIA, and local PD's certainly keep them on speed dial NSO was sanctioned by Commerce in 2021. A local PD doing business with them would be akin to doing business with a sanctioned Russian or Iranian entity.
alephnerd 2y ago