8 ms·

"Women and Children First"

47 points by squircle 2y ago

fitsumbelay 2y ago
awesome story. equally awesome third delivery by the Van Halen musical ensemble
kleton 2y ago
It was less than a mile to shore, but still amazing that one man made the swim https://maps.app.goo.gl/tLhRhBLb1DFMpCY56 https://maps.app.goo.gl/tLhRhBLb1DFMpCY56
- metaphor 2y ago
  The article claims it was three miles to shore, not less than one: > This course kept the Birkenhead within approximately three miles of the coast, maintaining a speed of approximately 8 knots. > One young officer did manage the three mile swim to the shore where he emerged to find his own horse standing waiting for him.
  - kleton 2y ago
    The article is wrong. The coordinates of the wreck can be found in the diving guide https://wikitravel.org/en/Diving_in_South_Africa/HMS_Birkenhead_wreck https://wikitravel.org/en/Diving_in_South_Africa/HMS_Birkenh...
    - squidlogic 2y ago
      The Wreckage location can be different than where the ship went under, due to the currents.
      - kleton 2y ago
        > The large sandstone reef to the south east of the wreckage with a pinnacle at the blinder known as Birkenhead Rock slopes down to about 27 m at the edge of the sand, which runs roughly east–west magnetic. The slope of this reef is quite steep to the east, but flattens out a bit where the engines of the wreck lie stacked at the edge of the sand.
rconti 2y ago
I can't find a source now (of course), but I was at the Titanic Museum in Belfast this summer, and the information there indicated (through my hazy memory) that "women and children first" didn't come out of some noble sense of chivalry, but of a maritime disaster in the 1850s where every single woman and child on board died. I can't remember the name of the ship, and maybe it's a mis-telling of the Birkenhead story, but the museum's version was that the loss of women and children in the earlier disaster led to such revulsion that it became practice to instead prioritize women and children. EDIT: Aha, it was the Atlantic in 1873 that I'm thinking of. So both stories can be true, since the Atlantic sinking occurred between the Birkenhead and the Titanic. https://www.phillyburbs.com/story/opinion/columns/2012/12/19/pondering-lost-life-lifesaving/17913943007/ https://www.phillyburbs.com/story/opinion/columns/2012/12/19... https://www.theguardian.com/news/1873/apr/03/mainsection.fromthearchive https://www.theguardian.com/news/1873/apr/03/mainsection.fro...
- esafak 2y ago
  It's just common sense to order by likelihood of perishing, if you want to minimize casualties.
  - Nevermark 2y ago
    And more smaller people and children can fit on a boat.
  - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
    This only applies if you consider it reasonably possible for someone to survive a shipwreck in frigid waters, not, of course, that those queuing could always accurately evaluate that chance. I think the reality here though, if we’re being honest, is that it’s based on a valuation of some lives over others, and that men are considered more expendable in emergencies.
- CTDOCodebases 2y ago
  I would argue that "women and children first" has been practiced since the dawn of times in a smaller setting i.e. tribes of hunter gatherers The motivation is to protect women and children from likely dangerous circumstance so that the tribe can be quickly repopulated. The tribes that sent all the women and children off to war or adventure and had only a few women or girl survivors left would have to wait for decades to repopulate the tribe to previous numbers but the opposite could be achieved in years. I can't find a link but this very scenario is playing out in Ukraine at the moment. There was a video released by the government outlining the policy perhaps to explain why men were barred from leaving the country.
ErikAugust 2y ago
First thing that comes to mind is Radiohead’s “Idioteque”.
- mtsolitary 2y ago
  Me first then the children
throw63495 2y ago
> The troops onboard included fresh drafts of > Only then did Captain Salmond shout to the men that everyone who could swim must save themselves by jumping into the sea and make for the boats. This article nicely illustrates male "privilege". First you are enslaved by government to serve in army. Second you are not even allowed to save yourself. They first had to deal with women, children and HORSES!!! before men were allowed to swim away!!!
efxhoy 2y ago
One of my teachers did a paper on maritime disasters and concluded that women were more likely to die in shipwrecks, despite “women and children first”. The Titanic and Birkenhead were the exceptions. https://www.ifn.se/media/3eoh2e0u/wp913.pdf https://www.ifn.se/media/3eoh2e0u/wp913.pdf > Since the sinking of the Titanic, there has been a widespread belief that the social norm of "women and children first" (WCF) gives women a survival advantage over men in maritime disasters, and that captains and crew members give priority to passengers. We analyze a database of 18 maritime disasters spanning three centuries, covering the fate of over 15,000 individuals of more than 30 nationalities. Our results provide a unique picture of maritime disasters. Women have a distinct survival disadvantage compared with men. Captains and crew survive at a significantly higher rate than passengers. We also find that: the captain has the power to enforce normative behavior; there seems to be no association between duration of a disaster and the impact of social norms; women fare no better when they constitute a small share of the ship's complement; the length of the voyage before the disaster appears to have no impact on women's relative survival rate; the sex gap in survival rates has declined since World War I; and women have a larger disadvantage in British shipwrecks. Taken together, our findings show that human behavior in life-and-death situations is best captured by the expression "every man for himself."
- aaron695 2y ago
  [dead]

47 points by squircle 2y ago

awesome story. equally awesome third delivery by the Van Halen musical ensemble

It was less than a mile to shore, but still amazing that one man made the swim https://maps.app.goo.gl/tLhRhBLb1DFMpCY56 https://maps.app.goo.gl/tLhRhBLb1DFMpCY56

metaphor 2y ago
The article claims it was three miles to shore, not less than one: > This course kept the Birkenhead within approximately three miles of the coast, maintaining a speed of approximately 8 knots. > One young officer did manage the three mile swim to the shore where he emerged to find his own horse standing waiting for him.
- kleton 2y ago
  The article is wrong. The coordinates of the wreck can be found in the diving guide https://wikitravel.org/en/Diving_in_South_Africa/HMS_Birkenhead_wreck https://wikitravel.org/en/Diving_in_South_Africa/HMS_Birkenh...
  - squidlogic 2y ago
    The Wreckage location can be different than where the ship went under, due to the currents.
    - kleton 2y ago
      > The large sandstone reef to the south east of the wreckage with a pinnacle at the blinder known as Birkenhead Rock slopes down to about 27 m at the edge of the sand, which runs roughly east–west magnetic. The slope of this reef is quite steep to the east, but flattens out a bit where the engines of the wreck lie stacked at the edge of the sand.

rconti 2y ago

I can't find a source now (of course), but I was at the Titanic Museum in Belfast this summer, and the information there indicated (through my hazy memory) that "women and children first" didn't come out of some noble sense of chivalry, but of a maritime disaster in the 1850s where every single woman and child on board died. I can't remember the name of the ship, and maybe it's a mis-telling of the Birkenhead story, but the museum's version was that the loss of women and children in the earlier disaster led to such revulsion that it became practice to instead prioritize women and children. EDIT: Aha, it was the Atlantic in 1873 that I'm thinking of. So both stories can be true, since the Atlantic sinking occurred between the Birkenhead and the Titanic. https://www.phillyburbs.com/story/opinion/columns/2012/12/19/pondering-lost-life-lifesaving/17913943007/ https://www.phillyburbs.com/story/opinion/columns/2012/12/19... https://www.theguardian.com/news/1873/apr/03/mainsection.fromthearchive https://www.theguardian.com/news/1873/apr/03/mainsection.fro...

esafak 2y ago
It's just common sense to order by likelihood of perishing, if you want to minimize casualties.
- Nevermark 2y ago
  And more smaller people and children can fit on a boat.
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  This only applies if you consider it reasonably possible for someone to survive a shipwreck in frigid waters, not, of course, that those queuing could always accurately evaluate that chance. I think the reality here though, if we’re being honest, is that it’s based on a valuation of some lives over others, and that men are considered more expendable in emergencies.
CTDOCodebases 2y ago
I would argue that "women and children first" has been practiced since the dawn of times in a smaller setting i.e. tribes of hunter gatherers The motivation is to protect women and children from likely dangerous circumstance so that the tribe can be quickly repopulated. The tribes that sent all the women and children off to war or adventure and had only a few women or girl survivors left would have to wait for decades to repopulate the tribe to previous numbers but the opposite could be achieved in years. I can't find a link but this very scenario is playing out in Ukraine at the moment. There was a video released by the government outlining the policy perhaps to explain why men were barred from leaving the country.

ErikAugust 2y ago

First thing that comes to mind is Radiohead’s “Idioteque”.

mtsolitary 2y ago
Me first then the children

throw63495 2y ago

> The troops onboard included fresh drafts of > Only then did Captain Salmond shout to the men that everyone who could swim must save themselves by jumping into the sea and make for the boats. This article nicely illustrates male "privilege". First you are enslaved by government to serve in army. Second you are not even allowed to save yourself. They first had to deal with women, children and HORSES!!! before men were allowed to swim away!!!

efxhoy 2y ago

One of my teachers did a paper on maritime disasters and concluded that women were more likely to die in shipwrecks, despite “women and children first”. The Titanic and Birkenhead were the exceptions. https://www.ifn.se/media/3eoh2e0u/wp913.pdf https://www.ifn.se/media/3eoh2e0u/wp913.pdf > Since the sinking of the Titanic, there has been a widespread belief that the social norm of "women and children first" (WCF) gives women a survival advantage over men in maritime disasters, and that captains and crew members give priority to passengers. We analyze a database of 18 maritime disasters spanning three centuries, covering the fate of over 15,000 individuals of more than 30 nationalities. Our results provide a unique picture of maritime disasters. Women have a distinct survival disadvantage compared with men. Captains and crew survive at a significantly higher rate than passengers. We also find that: the captain has the power to enforce normative behavior; there seems to be no association between duration of a disaster and the impact of social norms; women fare no better when they constitute a small share of the ship's complement; the length of the voyage before the disaster appears to have no impact on women's relative survival rate; the sex gap in survival rates has declined since World War I; and women have a larger disadvantage in British shipwrecks. Taken together, our findings show that human behavior in life-and-death situations is best captured by the expression "every man for himself."

aaron695 2y ago
[dead]