4 ms·

"perversion of sports" is a particularly American viewpoint, I think! The latent streak of puritanism, maybe. Yet, somehow, the NCAA (which is wage theft on a t

by adw 2y ago

"perversion of sports" is a particularly American viewpoint, I think! The latent streak of puritanism, maybe. Yet, somehow, the NCAA (which is wage theft on a truly industrial scale) is morally okay. It's weird. (The intersection with US ad culture – for existence, drug ads on TV – is maybe also unique.) Sport has, as a business, always been random number generation for gambling purposes. Some, like horseracing, have basically no other point. Gambling is going to happen, and like weed, it's probably better that it's regulated and taxed than entirely underground. There's no more gambling content now than there was fantasy football content before, and fantasy football was gambling too. If we're looking for a perversion of sports, though, how about the NCAA's industrial-scale wage theft? US professional sports should have junior systems which pay the players like the rest of the world...

HDThoreaun 2y ago
NCAA players are now being paid for what its worth
- adw 2y ago
  The NIL loophole? Yeah, not really, and not enforceably, and examples of teams reneging are not hard to find.
  - VWWHFSfQ 2y ago
    Not NIL. lawsuit in court right now is reaching a settlement to directly pay players. https://www.npr.org/2024/05/24/nx-s1-4978680/house-ncaa-settlement-pay-college-athletes https://www.npr.org/2024/05/24/nx-s1-4978680/house-ncaa-sett...
    - adw 2y ago
      22% of revenue, not employees, colleges don't accept employer liability. This settlement should be rejected as unconscionable. Public universities (and private universities which actually care about education!) would be well advised to get out of the business of running professional sports teams, I think.
      - SoftTalker 2y ago
        Big universities make way too much money from sports to ever get out of the business. Not only direct revenue but also alumni and sponsor donations.
        adw 2y ago
        The university sector (both public and private) is a mess and this is one of the many, many ways in which that is true.
consteval 2y ago
> The latent streak of puritanism, maybe The main problem is that addiction kind of goes around people's interests and their better judgement. Normally I agree, we don't need to be making 'moral' decisions for people. If they want to do something 'sinful' - like gambling - have at it. But the people who promote gambling have lots of money. And gambling is basically smoking. So, it gets hairy. They can lie, they can cheat, and they can manipulate people's minds, tricking them into doing something bad for them. And then the addiction does the rest.
- adw 2y ago
  Absolutely addiction does; so we're going to ban alcohol (and weed), and then maybe move onto video games and books and and and and? Prohibition has generally been a lot less effective than regulation. The problem in the US, in my view, is much more the utterly-gutted effectiveness of the regulatory state than it is the existence of legal gambling.
  - consteval 2y ago
    There's a big slippery slope here. Who says we need to keep going? That's not a hypothetical question - who says? Why would we do that? I agree regulation is good, but prohibition is a type of regulation. There're also levels of prohibition - you don't need to prohibit all of it, maybe just the most obviously harmful. Like you can ban online gambling but keep casinos if you want. I don't know, I don't have the analysis on which is worse.
    - gomerspiles 2y ago
      Fine, but then the US has spent a terrifying amount of my money on sports and I want it all back if the point of their sophisticated pro-social spending (which strangely has to include private ventures getting handouts) is actually to extract wealth from the poor and the weak.
    - thfuran 2y ago
      >Who says we need to keep going? That's not a hypothetical question - who says? Why would we do that? Why wouldn't we? If we're legally precluding people from hobbies that could harm them, there's always going to be a worst legal one.
the_gorilla 2y ago
> Sport has, as a business, always been random number generation for gambling purposes I personally don't care about the business of sports. Most sports were just ways for children to get exercise and everything that came after it was a perversion. Fat men sitting on couches watching other grown men throw a football around isn't much better than those same men gambling on it.
sickofparadox 2y ago
Being compensated in kind with housing, food, and education (not to mention significant "grants" from boosters clubs and brand deals) is not the same as wage theft and it is verbal slight of hand to suggest otherwise.
- VWWHFSfQ 2y ago
  That only applies to scholarship athletes. Walk-ons get no such benefits. They're working for free while their school is pulling in $60+ million a year in TV money to watch them play and the head coach is making 7 figures
- adw 2y ago
  If the players aren't employed by their teams, provided with healthcare and pensions and all the rest, then it absolutely is. The NCAA (for revenue sports) is a scam and everyone involved with any of it is morally bankrupt.
  - sickofparadox 2y ago
    >If the players aren't employed by their teams, provided with healthcare and pensions and all the rest, then it absolutely is. Why? They are being paid, fed, housed, and educated in exchange for playing sports at nearly the highest level. Where is the injustice? They live lives of opulence and leisure that kings of previous ages could not even dream of.
    - bostik 2y ago
      Funnily enough... considering how healthcare in the US is tied to employment, then professional athletes of any age should be covered for it by their employer. People who do pro sports are constantly pushing their bodies to the very limit of what they can do. With those constraints, accidents and overruns are much more likely to cause extended damage.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      College athletes get healthcare. They have team doctors and trainers, and for general healthcare if they aren't covered by their parents' insurance they will have insurance through the school (required) which will be paid out of their athletic scholarship. I don't know of any major university that would permit a residential student to not have health insurance coverage.
jgalt212 2y ago
> Yet, somehow, the NCAA (which is wage theft on a truly industrial scale) is morally okay. It's weird. Outside of top men's basketball and football programs, there is no real wage theft occurring. These minor sports are avocations for student athletes, and not businesses for the universities.
- jogjayr 2y ago
  Outside of the places where money is being made, money is not being made. Edit: but even when money is being made, the athletes don't get it.
  - jgalt212 2y ago
    I'm trying to frame the problem--not say there isn't a problem. Athletes is too broad a term. You're engaging in tautologies.
    - jogjayr 2y ago
      Sorry it sounded like you were saying there isn't a problem because you said > there is no real wage theft occurring I know you qualified it with > Outside of top men's basketball and football programs But that was my point. Where no one's making money, no one's making money.
  - LargeWu 2y ago
    No, but many of them are getting a free or discounted education. Is that not something of value?
    - jogjayr 2y ago
      It's non-zero value, but we can't say it's the market-clearing price for their services. And anecdotally the quality of that education is compromised. Student-athletes in the serious football and basketball programs spend a lot of their time at practice. During the season, travel to away games eats up much of their free time. They're "encouraged" to take only easy courses. There are reports of grading corruption so their GPA is high enough to remain eligible to play.

by adw 2y ago

HDThoreaun 2y ago

NCAA players are now being paid for what its worth

adw 2y ago
The NIL loophole? Yeah, not really, and not enforceably, and examples of teams reneging are not hard to find.
- VWWHFSfQ 2y ago
  Not NIL. lawsuit in court right now is reaching a settlement to directly pay players. https://www.npr.org/2024/05/24/nx-s1-4978680/house-ncaa-settlement-pay-college-athletes https://www.npr.org/2024/05/24/nx-s1-4978680/house-ncaa-sett...
  - adw 2y ago
    22% of revenue, not employees, colleges don't accept employer liability. This settlement should be rejected as unconscionable. Public universities (and private universities which actually care about education!) would be well advised to get out of the business of running professional sports teams, I think.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      Big universities make way too much money from sports to ever get out of the business. Not only direct revenue but also alumni and sponsor donations.
      - adw 2y ago
        The university sector (both public and private) is a mess and this is one of the many, many ways in which that is true.

consteval 2y ago

> The latent streak of puritanism, maybe The main problem is that addiction kind of goes around people's interests and their better judgement. Normally I agree, we don't need to be making 'moral' decisions for people. If they want to do something 'sinful' - like gambling - have at it. But the people who promote gambling have lots of money. And gambling is basically smoking. So, it gets hairy. They can lie, they can cheat, and they can manipulate people's minds, tricking them into doing something bad for them. And then the addiction does the rest.

adw 2y ago
Absolutely addiction does; so we're going to ban alcohol (and weed), and then maybe move onto video games and books and and and and? Prohibition has generally been a lot less effective than regulation. The problem in the US, in my view, is much more the utterly-gutted effectiveness of the regulatory state than it is the existence of legal gambling.
- consteval 2y ago
  There's a big slippery slope here. Who says we need to keep going? That's not a hypothetical question - who says? Why would we do that? I agree regulation is good, but prohibition is a type of regulation. There're also levels of prohibition - you don't need to prohibit all of it, maybe just the most obviously harmful. Like you can ban online gambling but keep casinos if you want. I don't know, I don't have the analysis on which is worse.
  - gomerspiles 2y ago
    Fine, but then the US has spent a terrifying amount of my money on sports and I want it all back if the point of their sophisticated pro-social spending (which strangely has to include private ventures getting handouts) is actually to extract wealth from the poor and the weak.
  - thfuran 2y ago
    >Who says we need to keep going? That's not a hypothetical question - who says? Why would we do that? Why wouldn't we? If we're legally precluding people from hobbies that could harm them, there's always going to be a worst legal one.

the_gorilla 2y ago

> Sport has, as a business, always been random number generation for gambling purposes I personally don't care about the business of sports. Most sports were just ways for children to get exercise and everything that came after it was a perversion. Fat men sitting on couches watching other grown men throw a football around isn't much better than those same men gambling on it.

sickofparadox 2y ago

Being compensated in kind with housing, food, and education (not to mention significant "grants" from boosters clubs and brand deals) is not the same as wage theft and it is verbal slight of hand to suggest otherwise.

VWWHFSfQ 2y ago
That only applies to scholarship athletes. Walk-ons get no such benefits. They're working for free while their school is pulling in $60+ million a year in TV money to watch them play and the head coach is making 7 figures
adw 2y ago
If the players aren't employed by their teams, provided with healthcare and pensions and all the rest, then it absolutely is. The NCAA (for revenue sports) is a scam and everyone involved with any of it is morally bankrupt.
- sickofparadox 2y ago
  >If the players aren't employed by their teams, provided with healthcare and pensions and all the rest, then it absolutely is. Why? They are being paid, fed, housed, and educated in exchange for playing sports at nearly the highest level. Where is the injustice? They live lives of opulence and leisure that kings of previous ages could not even dream of.
  - bostik 2y ago
    Funnily enough... considering how healthcare in the US is tied to employment, then professional athletes of any age should be covered for it by their employer. People who do pro sports are constantly pushing their bodies to the very limit of what they can do. With those constraints, accidents and overruns are much more likely to cause extended damage.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    College athletes get healthcare. They have team doctors and trainers, and for general healthcare if they aren't covered by their parents' insurance they will have insurance through the school (required) which will be paid out of their athletic scholarship. I don't know of any major university that would permit a residential student to not have health insurance coverage.

jgalt212 2y ago

> Yet, somehow, the NCAA (which is wage theft on a truly industrial scale) is morally okay. It's weird. Outside of top men's basketball and football programs, there is no real wage theft occurring. These minor sports are avocations for student athletes, and not businesses for the universities.

jogjayr 2y ago
Outside of the places where money is being made, money is not being made. Edit: but even when money is being made, the athletes don't get it.
- jgalt212 2y ago
  I'm trying to frame the problem--not say there isn't a problem. Athletes is too broad a term. You're engaging in tautologies.
  - jogjayr 2y ago
    Sorry it sounded like you were saying there isn't a problem because you said > there is no real wage theft occurring I know you qualified it with > Outside of top men's basketball and football programs But that was my point. Where no one's making money, no one's making money.
- LargeWu 2y ago
  No, but many of them are getting a free or discounted education. Is that not something of value?
  - jogjayr 2y ago
    It's non-zero value, but we can't say it's the market-clearing price for their services. And anecdotally the quality of that education is compromised. Student-athletes in the serious football and basketball programs spend a lot of their time at practice. During the season, travel to away games eats up much of their free time. They're "encouraged" to take only easy courses. There are reports of grading corruption so their GPA is high enough to remain eligible to play.