5 ms·

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do." This holds everywhere. (Well, with the exception of some places where locals have gotten used to tourists behaving differen

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do." This holds everywhere. (Well, with the exception of some places where locals have gotten used to tourists behaving differently.) To travel some place and then complain about the local customs there is just a rude if a someone goes from France to the US as if someone goes from the US to France. If you don't like the local culture in some spot, just stop going there. In many jobs in the US, the tips ARE the salary, and the customer is the employer just as much as the owner of the place is. And if you (as a customer) don't pay for the work in such a setting. Now if the locals don't like this arrangement, they should work to change it. But when we are visiting, we should try to adapt.

lores 2y ago
All 50 states have a law to the effect that minimum wage is minimum wage, and if tips + tipped wage dies not reach it,b the restaurant must make up the difference. With that in mind, why are service staff singled out to receive tips? Why not warehouse workers or street sweepers? Their job is less pleasant. Include everything in the price like in most of Europe, and have the staff know in advance what they'll be paid, it makes the experience a lot less stressful for everyone.
- trashtester 2y ago
  > With that in mind, why are service staff singled out to receive tips? Partly for historical reasons. But also because it is one of the types of jobs where this actually works. (Because customers can experience the result of the work directly and because the quality of the work is quite variable.) Other professions have other ways to provide incentive based salary. Lawyers, MD's, consultants, musicians or tech workers all have ways to (at least in some positions) profit from their own work directly. Construction workers may have team based rewards based on meeting deadlines, etc. Then there are a few professions where such rewards don't make sense, including those you bring up. These are generally jobs where the quality of the work is either not very variable, is hard to measure or does not connect to any revenue streams. For such jobs, fixed salaries are required. Typically, though, for most professions, fixed salary models tend to provide lower AVERAGE salary payments for those who opt for fixed salary. The risk involved in variable pay tends to lead to a risk premium benefitting the worker. And it may ALSO benfefit the employers, which in turn over time will result in an increased demand for workers. Europe has a model with less incentive based compensation. Europe also has (on average) about 2x the US unemployment rate and about 50% of the salaries in many growth sectors for those who DO have a job. In return, Europe DOES manage to have a lower salary gap between the warehouse worker and the software developer, but not necessarily a higher salary (even by PPP) than the US for the warehouse worker.
  - kergonath 2y ago
    > Partly for historical reasons. But also because it is one of the types of jobs where this actually works. (Because customers can experience the result of the work directly and because the quality of the work is quite variable.) No, it does not work. Good service is not babysitting customers so that they are sure every minute that you’re there to justify your tips. Decent service is the baseline expectation when you go to a restaurant. I don’t tip my phone’s maker when it turns on, it’s stupid. The social aspects completely decouple the tip and the quality of service.
  - lores 2y ago
    That's only in theory, though. Service in France is better than in the US because waiting is respectable and a profession, and tipping in the US is linked to the quality of service by no one I know - tipping less than the standard 15 or 20% is basically spitting in the waiter's face and few have the guts/meanness required.
vouaobrasil 2y ago
> Now if the locals don't like this arrangement, they should work to change it. But when we are visiting, we should try to adapt. Well, I was a local in North America for decades and was ALSO a local in Australia for a long time where there was no tipping. So there. Besides, I disagree. I think complaining about culture is fine. Culture should not be above criticism. After all, if other people write their perspectives, both positive and negatives, then it makes it easier whether to know when to visit. I have no idea why human behaviour should be above criticism just because it's been shoehorned into the nebulous concept of culture.
- trashtester 2y ago
  > I think complaining about culture is fine. A lot of people here in Europe, perhaps particularily so in France, do NOT think it's ok when American's on vacation overtly behave rudely and without respect. One attitude they tend to bring (that is more true in the US), is that "the customer is always right", and that the staff should just suck it up when they're being rude about it. Such Americans simply do not grasp that the small family restaurant in rural France has people in it that are NOT driven primarly by short term profit or tips, but (compared to a similar place in the US) more about tradition, professional pride and simply having an enjoyable time at work. The same is true many places in Asia. My point is that this goes both ways. That 21-year old waitress in that Hell's Kitchen restaurant has a completly different life situation. She may struggling to pay for her University fee, not to mention rent, and does not intend to stay a waitress forever. So when the German tourist is offended when she (having experienced Europeans before) makes a point of making a circle around the 18% recommended tip when handing him the check, it's for good reason. Also, just because even the base price of that steak he just ate is already higher than it would be in Germany, costs in Manhattan are correspondingly higher, so that price barely covers the expenses BEFORE the waitress can receive any kind of salary. So in your particular case, you're not like that German. You simply favor a slightly different political/economic system than what is currently in place in the US. Also, chances are that you WOULD pay that tip without making a scene.
  - vouaobrasil 2y ago
    > Also, chances are that you WOULD pay that tip without making a scene. Who said anything about making a scene? I was talking about complaining here, as it seemed to be implied by one of the GPs. I'm not a social dolt. If I think the price is too expensive, I simply don't visit the establishment in the first place.
kergonath 2y ago
> To travel some place and then complain about the local customs there is just a rude if a someone goes from France to the US as if someone goes from the US to France. If you don't like the local culture in some spot, just stop going there. Nah. Moaning and complaining is a human right. What’s wrong is to expect the locals to care or change their ways for you. But it goes both ways. I tip when I am in the US because that’s how it’s done. I will never stop saying how stupid, inefficient and unfair to the staff that is. Or arguing vehemently against anything like that taking root here.

lores 2y ago

All 50 states have a law to the effect that minimum wage is minimum wage, and if tips + tipped wage dies not reach it,b the restaurant must make up the difference. With that in mind, why are service staff singled out to receive tips? Why not warehouse workers or street sweepers? Their job is less pleasant. Include everything in the price like in most of Europe, and have the staff know in advance what they'll be paid, it makes the experience a lot less stressful for everyone.

trashtester 2y ago
> With that in mind, why are service staff singled out to receive tips? Partly for historical reasons. But also because it is one of the types of jobs where this actually works. (Because customers can experience the result of the work directly and because the quality of the work is quite variable.) Other professions have other ways to provide incentive based salary. Lawyers, MD's, consultants, musicians or tech workers all have ways to (at least in some positions) profit from their own work directly. Construction workers may have team based rewards based on meeting deadlines, etc. Then there are a few professions where such rewards don't make sense, including those you bring up. These are generally jobs where the quality of the work is either not very variable, is hard to measure or does not connect to any revenue streams. For such jobs, fixed salaries are required. Typically, though, for most professions, fixed salary models tend to provide lower AVERAGE salary payments for those who opt for fixed salary. The risk involved in variable pay tends to lead to a risk premium benefitting the worker. And it may ALSO benfefit the employers, which in turn over time will result in an increased demand for workers. Europe has a model with less incentive based compensation. Europe also has (on average) about 2x the US unemployment rate and about 50% of the salaries in many growth sectors for those who DO have a job. In return, Europe DOES manage to have a lower salary gap between the warehouse worker and the software developer, but not necessarily a higher salary (even by PPP) than the US for the warehouse worker.
- kergonath 2y ago
  > Partly for historical reasons. But also because it is one of the types of jobs where this actually works. (Because customers can experience the result of the work directly and because the quality of the work is quite variable.) No, it does not work. Good service is not babysitting customers so that they are sure every minute that you’re there to justify your tips. Decent service is the baseline expectation when you go to a restaurant. I don’t tip my phone’s maker when it turns on, it’s stupid. The social aspects completely decouple the tip and the quality of service.
- lores 2y ago
  That's only in theory, though. Service in France is better than in the US because waiting is respectable and a profession, and tipping in the US is linked to the quality of service by no one I know - tipping less than the standard 15 or 20% is basically spitting in the waiter's face and few have the guts/meanness required.

vouaobrasil 2y ago

> Now if the locals don't like this arrangement, they should work to change it. But when we are visiting, we should try to adapt. Well, I was a local in North America for decades and was ALSO a local in Australia for a long time where there was no tipping. So there. Besides, I disagree. I think complaining about culture is fine. Culture should not be above criticism. After all, if other people write their perspectives, both positive and negatives, then it makes it easier whether to know when to visit. I have no idea why human behaviour should be above criticism just because it's been shoehorned into the nebulous concept of culture.

trashtester 2y ago
> I think complaining about culture is fine. A lot of people here in Europe, perhaps particularily so in France, do NOT think it's ok when American's on vacation overtly behave rudely and without respect. One attitude they tend to bring (that is more true in the US), is that "the customer is always right", and that the staff should just suck it up when they're being rude about it. Such Americans simply do not grasp that the small family restaurant in rural France has people in it that are NOT driven primarly by short term profit or tips, but (compared to a similar place in the US) more about tradition, professional pride and simply having an enjoyable time at work. The same is true many places in Asia. My point is that this goes both ways. That 21-year old waitress in that Hell's Kitchen restaurant has a completly different life situation. She may struggling to pay for her University fee, not to mention rent, and does not intend to stay a waitress forever. So when the German tourist is offended when she (having experienced Europeans before) makes a point of making a circle around the 18% recommended tip when handing him the check, it's for good reason. Also, just because even the base price of that steak he just ate is already higher than it would be in Germany, costs in Manhattan are correspondingly higher, so that price barely covers the expenses BEFORE the waitress can receive any kind of salary. So in your particular case, you're not like that German. You simply favor a slightly different political/economic system than what is currently in place in the US. Also, chances are that you WOULD pay that tip without making a scene.
- vouaobrasil 2y ago
  > Also, chances are that you WOULD pay that tip without making a scene. Who said anything about making a scene? I was talking about complaining here, as it seemed to be implied by one of the GPs. I'm not a social dolt. If I think the price is too expensive, I simply don't visit the establishment in the first place.

kergonath 2y ago

> To travel some place and then complain about the local customs there is just a rude if a someone goes from France to the US as if someone goes from the US to France. If you don't like the local culture in some spot, just stop going there. Nah. Moaning and complaining is a human right. What’s wrong is to expect the locals to care or change their ways for you. But it goes both ways. I tip when I am in the US because that’s how it’s done. I will never stop saying how stupid, inefficient and unfair to the staff that is. Or arguing vehemently against anything like that taking root here.