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macOS Sequoia is certified to Unix 03
- betaby 2y ago... with some GNU components stuck in 2006.
- samtheprogram 2y agoDoesn’t GNU literally stand for “GNU’s not Unix”
- vondur 2y agoGNU is not Unix...
- Y_Y 2y ago"GNU is not Unix" is a name, not necessarily the truth. See also: Lame ain't an MP3 encoder, natural gas, DPRK
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- samtheprogram 2y agoSo, OS’s that don’t ship with GNU components aren’t Unix? See: any BSD. All of the things you mention in your post have _alternatives_ that also comply with whatever they reference: there are other MP3 encoders, there are other types of gas, there are other democratic republics… And more importantly, GNU isn’t Unix.
- Y_Y 2y ago> So, OS’s that don’t ship with GNU components aren’t Unix? Why would you write this? Are you trolling, or do you believe that's really what was meant? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent
- pavlov 2y agoProbably not a problem for anyone who needs compliance with a 2003 standard.
- bastardoperator 2y agohomebrew is your friend here
- kstrauser 2y agoThat's so true. The OS ships with certain things preinstalled, but you can install other or newer versions of them. And if I found myself in a shop where I needed to use standard command line tools to do my job but wasn't allowed to install or update them, I'd be looking elsewhere because life's too short for that bureaucratic overreach. I hear horror stories like bosses not allowing their employees to choose their own tooling. Pretty much any office like that which doesn't have armed soldiers guarding the building deserves ridicule.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y agoIt is, after all, a great tradition of UNIX™ systems to install the OS... and then immediately install GNU tools on top to make it less painful to work on. This is just macOS carrying the banner proudly:P
- steve1977 2y agoStuck with GPLv2 basically.
- ranger_danger 2y agoAre there any other operating systems today that are Unix certified?
- criddell 2y agoThe linked page lists some SCO, IBM, and HP products. I have no idea how relevant any of those are. Is macOS the only remaining Unix with significant a significant user base?
- arghwhat 2y agoCertified UNIX. Everything we associate with UNIX is not certified, including the BSD base that macOS obtained its UNIX behavior from.
- bityard 2y agoAIX is still highly popular in certain industries where nobody gets fired for buying IBM. HP-UX is still being released, not sure who is using it but it must bring in enough revenue to justify support. SCO and whoever they sold to have been dead for quite a while.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- superkuh 2y agoIt may be "certified" but that hardly matters when MacOS Sequoia is a pay-to-access-networking operating system. https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/663875 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/663875 https://developer.apple.com/documentation/bundleresources/entitlements/com_apple_developer_networking_multicast https://developer.apple.com/documentation/bundleresources/en... It's absolutely wild. They've broken multicast and UDP for all applications that do not pay Apple money (like open source, community coded ones). Which means things like mouse/keyboard sharing applications like synergy/barrier/etc stopped working in many cases. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. And there's no way for a human to control this "multicast entitlement" on their own OS how they like it. The only way for applications on Sequoia to have multicast network access is for some commercial developer pay for it. This is very not Unix. Careful out there "up"grading.
- ranger_danger 2y agoTthat sounds very anti-trust to me... Although that might imply there must be a business involved that is wronged by their actions... and many open source programs do not have that luxury.
- kec 2y agoBoth of your links refer to that entitlement being required on iOS, not macOS, are you sure it applies to Mac (and if it does, does that even matter given non-app-store-apps can assert whatever entitlements they'd like with impunity)?
- superkuh 2y agoThey haven't finished updating their docs. This lockdown applies starting in Sequoia to the desktop OS. Here is an explaination confirming my statements: https://forums.developer.apple.com/forums/thread/757824 https://forums.developer.apple.com/forums/thread/757824 "Apple is bringing some networking protections over from iOS to macOS starting with Sequoia. Please see the following links: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2024/10123?time=1097 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2024/10123?time=... https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/663858 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/663858 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10110/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10110/ " I'm already fielding questions about this from affected Mac OS Sequoia users in the #barrier IRC help channel.
- wenc 2y agoI remember a time when this mattered in terms of branding (Mac OS X being a Unix). It meant that the OS was “industrial-class”. This was against a backdrop of Macs not being seen as serious machines, unlike Windows machines which were more “corporate”. But nowadays macOS is so pervasive that a Unix certification doesn’t buy much brand cachet. Perhaps it might help for specific compliance requirements but those are likely the minority.
- throw0101b 2y ago> It meant that the OS was “industrial-class”. This was against a backdrop of Macs not being seen as serious machines, unlike Windows machines which were more “corporate”. See FoxTrot comic from February 2002: * https://www.gocomics.com/foxtrot/2002/02/25 https://www.gocomics.com/foxtrot/2002/02/25
- WD-42 2y agoI love how Apple basically cp -R BSD, became the most profitable company in the world off it and gave nothing back except a walled garden and lock in. But hey it’s still technically Unix.
- whalesalad 2y agoApple has made some substantial open source contributions. - LLVM - https://llvm.org/ https://llvm.org/ - They are the stewards of CUPS (Common UNIX Printing System) - https://www.cups.org/ https://www.cups.org/ - Darwin kernel is open source - https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/xnu https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/xnu - Webkit - https://opensource.apple.com/projects/webkit/ https://opensource.apple.com/projects/webkit/
- ChocolateGod 2y agoI'm not sure Darwin has had much impact outside of Apple, Apple also tends to keep versions of it to themselves. That said, the other contributions like WebKit and LLVM have had a wide and positive impact.
- Y_Y 2y agoTo be fair, all of those started as FOSS outside of Apple. LLVM came from academics at UofI, CUPS has been around since forever and they just bought it and started paying the main dev, Darwin came from pillaging NeXT, and Webkit famously was based on KHTML from KDE.
- pxc 2y agoIf you actually look at Apple's history with these, it's embarrassing for Apple. Apple effectively abandoned CUPS when Michael R. Sweet left the company, which is why the OpenPrinting fork exists. For something like a year they let the project languish and accepted virtually no patches, either. No one but Apple uses Apple CUPS anymore. Darwin is subject to periodic, incomplete code dumps to the point that for decades even getting it to build has been a struggle that includes tons of downstream work. At the moment, such efforts are in a historic slump; no recent stack is usable for anyone and it's been that way for years. WebKit was a hostile fork (without any history of antagonism to motivate it) of KHTML, essentially classic code-over-the-wall stuff. Its original announcement was cause for consternation in the F/OSS community, not celebration. LLVM I don't know much about the governance and maintenance of. Maybe someone else can speak to that. But as useful as LLVM and WebKit have been to downstream projects, Apple's record with open-source is mixed at best.
- bluejekyll 2y agoI’ve always thought POSIX compliance is the primary thing vendors should be targeting for portability. I was trying to find something that would explain the difference between POSIX and UNIX compliance, but there’s not great sources on this specifically. I imagine UNIX is a superset of POSIX, I’d be curious if anyone knows of a simple comparison between the two?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- chuckadams 2y agoFar as I can tell, the Single Unix Specification (SUS) is POSIX plus one extra standardized api, namely curses.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Asmod4n 2y agoI’ve always wondered, since back when OS X 10.5 got apples first Unix certification. What does that help you as a developer? Can you just download the spec for free, built against it and have a working app for several platforms that not only compiles and runs but also behaves the same on all of them?
- steve1977 2y agoGenerally yes, although that app would then obviously need to be restricted to only use POSIX APIs.
- boomskats 2y agoRelevant post / discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29984016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29984016