5 ms·

Godot team block dev for political reasons

50 points by _imnothere 2y ago

bearjaws 2y ago
Based on the two main profiles shown... They are both deep into political discussions on Twitter and "anti-woke" rhetoric. Their "commentary" is inflammatory and toxic, so probably go banned for generally being tools. IMO banning them is silly, but maintaining OSS is not fun and dealing with people who've made politics their whole shtick is even less fun.
- ClassyJacket 2y ago
  Why are the maintainers allowed to have politics but the devs aren't? What do you define as "inflammatory"? Knowing what a woman is?
  - wiskinator 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - yawpitch 2y ago
    [flagged]
pjmlp 2y ago
This is going crazy on the twitter feed, they are blocking everyone that even dares to express an opinion, or reposts the matter, including sponsors, that have removed their sponsorship as reponse to being blocked.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  It's funny how the job is called a "Community Manager" yet the person they gave that job to has never built a community themselves in order to manage it, they're just terminally online, mentally ill activists abusing their newly given power to enforce their personal views on everyone else across the community they're now in charge of to compensate and virtue signal for the social unfairness they see in society/the world, as if it's their personal account and not that of a company/employer. How the hell did they decide to give such a person such an important publicly facing job is beyond me.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    Community manager is weird place as it is not valued or seen as actually important position. You don't really need education or even significant experience to work in it. And basically when things go normally there is not that great impact. Plus the part of community they usually deal with is not exactly great... But as seen here it can be also extremely destructive position. Possibly capable of brining down any good will or work done.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >community they usually deal with is not exactly great You mean their paying customers/donators? >But as seen here it can be also extremely destructive position. That's why you should vet those people and not let in those wishing to use their new position to put down others based on disagreements on personal belief.
      - talldayo 2y ago
        This is why no professional organization should conduct themselves on X (or Twitter), period. Open Source software can say stupid shit and still get used because it's actually superior to paid alternatives (eg. MPV). Godot is lucky - if they were a real business, they might have to worry about offending people on the internet.
        charlieyu1 2y ago
        Plenty of organisations used Twitter to promote their stuff for good.
        talldayo 2y ago
        And now they use X, to self-promote their brand to extremists and misinformed critics.
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        >Godot is lucky No matter how lucky you are, everyone's luck streak eventually comes to an end sooner or later.
ziolo 2y ago
Interesting to contrast this with, say, the SQLite developers, who also have very strong beliefs that are openly stated, but, are tolerant of others who don't share those beliefs and are happy for anyone to use their software regardless of whether they share the same views or not.
- Sincere6066 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Where was the targeted harassment in Godot's case? Unless you call someone saying "focus on the engine, not on politics" as being harassment.
  - ziolo 2y ago
    They have, yes. Like when they introduced a new Code of Conduct a few years back: https://mindmatters.ai/2018/10/peaceful-code-of-conduct-sparks-rage-in-silicon-valley https://mindmatters.ai/2018/10/peaceful-code-of-conduct-spar...
  - 0x_rs 2y ago
    Yes, they previously have been. https://www.theregister.com/2018/10/22/sqlite_code_of_conduct/ https://www.theregister.com/2018/10/22/sqlite_code_of_conduc...
Ekaros 2y ago
Seems like good way to destroy any good will anyone has for your engine... So now that both Godot and Unity are dead, what is next?
- Kelteseth 2y ago
  It's funny I feel only people how never used Godot call these shots.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Unity is quite healthy, because they still yeld a strong position across all console owners, mobile OSes, and the tooling that they offer, additionally the issue was among the indie community, less so with the comercial ones. In any case, they learned the lesson, no one from management responsible for the runtime fee is still at the company, and the runtime fee has been dropped. Alternatively you have Unreal, LibGDX, MonoGame, FNA, Stride, Murder,..... up to do your own engine.
- archagon 2y ago
  In what way does this tangential community drama affect the viability of Godot as an open source game engine? It’s a non-sequitur.
elmo2you 2y ago
I guess it will take some time for the dust to settle and assess the damage and full course of events. Regardless, from the looks of it so far, this Community Manager should probably be placed on forced leave and be stripped of all privileges, pending a thorough investigation. A psychiatric evaluation might also be warranted. Not because of any political ideology, but simply to assess if this person could and should be held accountable, legally and maybe even financially, for the inflicted damage to Godot as a project/product. So far, it doesn't look good. Many years of hard work (maybe not so much code development but pretty much everything else) may have been irreparably damaged if not evaporated in mere days. Personally, I've been several times in a position where I considered Godot as the basis for application development. In hindsight I am now relieved I did not, for this drama would have turned that into a serious business liability. I can only imagine the (financial) implications for other companies who did pick Godot as a tech to build part of their business upon. While that may be considered collateral and "just the price of doing business", I'd would certainly hold this individual personally responsible for that damage. While a fork may mitigate some of the damage already done, it is not going to fix what went sideways here. Based on just a cursory observation from what happened here, there is no doubt in my mind that (regardless of motivation or justification) this individual should never wield this much power, ever again. If Godot leadership does not take these actions back (into their own hands), it may find itself held accountable for the results of this situation. They may want to go find an experienced law firm too. I doubt this will be the end of this drama for them. While Open Source licenses may divert/absolve legal liability for technical/functionality/code-quality aspects, the same might not be true for liability as the result of harm-inducing behavior of individual people (like the kind that appears to have happened here). If nothing else, let this episode be a lesson for doing proper vetting of people in a position of (potential) power. As most serious businesses know all too well, having anyone with opinions on the extremities of any ideological/political spectrum in a position of power, is typically not a bright idea. Though in this case I’d personally argue it’s a lot worse and appears to involve a mentally unhinged individual. Any reasonable person would have considered and reconsidered the implications of the actions so far taken .. and even then still waited for a considerable body of group consensus would have approved these actions before pressing the red button.
- archagon 2y ago
imiric 2y ago
What a shitshow. This type of radical ideology has infested so many companies and open source projects. NixOS, GNOME, Asahi Linux, Elementary OS, Red Hat, IBM... What is the end goal of these political purges? How is hate speech and discrimination against people who disagree with your political views conducive to an open and inclusive environment? This is the same type of behavior they're criticizing the other side of doing. Not only that, but they're vilifying and excluding people who simply object to this behavior. It's hypocrisy and absolute insanity. The only purge that needs to happen is of these SJWs from software projects and companies. The only thing they've achieved in the past decade is to stir some shit where there was none, to divide and exclude rather than diversify and include, and to annoy a whole bunch of people in the process. *Stop making everything political.*
SeanAnderson 2y ago
Godot just posted their damage control response on X: https://x.com/godotfoundation/status/1840721449364988300/photo/1 https://x.com/godotfoundation/status/1840721449364988300/pho... https://x.com/godotfoundation/status/1840721449364988300/photo/2 https://x.com/godotfoundation/status/1840721449364988300/pho... 1) On Friday, we made a tweet that unexpectedly led to a wave of harassment directed at our staff and community. We unequivocally condemn this abuse. The volume of negative engagement overwhelmed our moderation efforts. While attempting to protect the Godot community we mistakenly blocked individuals who were not participating in the harassment. The Godot Foundation Board takes full responsibility for these moderation actions. If you believe you were blocked in error and have not violated our Code of Conduct, please contact us with the form linked below. We are committed to swiftly rectifying any mistakes. We firmly stand by our mission to keep our community spaces free from hate, discrimination, and other toxic behaviors. – The Godot Foundation Board 2) On community moderator Xananax We strongly condemn the harmful language used by Xananax, moderator of an unofficial Godot-related Discord server. We want to clarify that Xananax is not hired by nor a spokesperson for the Godot Foundation. As an organization, we have our own official Discord server, moderated together with new volunteers vetted by our team. – The Godot Foundation I found their responses to be... insufficient and potentially blind to the amount the debacle affected public perception?
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >we made a tweet that unexpectedly led to a wave of harassment directed at our staff and community. What terrible gaslighting here, shifting the blame from their community manager in charge doing the harassments, to the community itself as being the harassers.
  - Sincere6066 2y ago
    The "community" in this case being someone who complained that game engines were woke.
    - Khaine 2y ago
      Stop it with these lies. Someone got banned for quoting the creator of Godot https://x.com/Cosmic_Scr/status/1840184610862313560 https://x.com/Cosmic_Scr/status/1840184610862313560
Sincere6066 2y ago
[flagged]
- bunnycorn 2y ago
  Thanks for letting us know.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    I like it when people openly advertise their red flags and mental illnesses. Makes it easy for me to avoid them.
bunnycorn 2y ago
I define myself politically as a Classical Liberal and therefore I strongly oppose pseudoscientific positions like those defended by the Critical Theory folks (aka "woke"). I wholeheartedly support the Godot team. We can't tolerate each other. We can't be friends. I know some people will tell that people like me are wrong, people like them are wrong, that we are both wrong, but you just need to educate yourself politically.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  I can't say whether you are wrong, I can only say whether you are mentally ill.

50 points by _imnothere 2y ago

Based on the two main profiles shown... They are both deep into political discussions on Twitter and "anti-woke" rhetoric. Their "commentary" is inflammatory and toxic, so probably go banned for generally being tools. IMO banning them is silly, but maintaining OSS is not fun and dealing with people who've made politics their whole shtick is even less fun.

ClassyJacket 2y ago
Why are the maintainers allowed to have politics but the devs aren't? What do you define as "inflammatory"? Knowing what a woman is?
- wiskinator 2y ago
  [flagged]
- yawpitch 2y ago
  [flagged]

pjmlp 2y ago

This is going crazy on the twitter feed, they are blocking everyone that even dares to express an opinion, or reposts the matter, including sponsors, that have removed their sponsorship as reponse to being blocked.

Rinzler89 2y ago
It's funny how the job is called a "Community Manager" yet the person they gave that job to has never built a community themselves in order to manage it, they're just terminally online, mentally ill activists abusing their newly given power to enforce their personal views on everyone else across the community they're now in charge of to compensate and virtue signal for the social unfairness they see in society/the world, as if it's their personal account and not that of a company/employer. How the hell did they decide to give such a person such an important publicly facing job is beyond me.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  Community manager is weird place as it is not valued or seen as actually important position. You don't really need education or even significant experience to work in it. And basically when things go normally there is not that great impact. Plus the part of community they usually deal with is not exactly great... But as seen here it can be also extremely destructive position. Possibly capable of brining down any good will or work done.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >community they usually deal with is not exactly great You mean their paying customers/donators? >But as seen here it can be also extremely destructive position. That's why you should vet those people and not let in those wishing to use their new position to put down others based on disagreements on personal belief.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      This is why no professional organization should conduct themselves on X (or Twitter), period. Open Source software can say stupid shit and still get used because it's actually superior to paid alternatives (eg. MPV). Godot is lucky - if they were a real business, they might have to worry about offending people on the internet.
      - charlieyu1 2y ago
        Plenty of organisations used Twitter to promote their stuff for good.
        talldayo 2y ago
        And now they use X, to self-promote their brand to extremists and misinformed critics.
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        >Godot is lucky No matter how lucky you are, everyone's luck streak eventually comes to an end sooner or later.

ziolo 2y ago

Interesting to contrast this with, say, the SQLite developers, who also have very strong beliefs that are openly stated, but, are tolerant of others who don't share those beliefs and are happy for anyone to use their software regardless of whether they share the same views or not.

Sincere6066 2y ago
[flagged]
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Where was the targeted harassment in Godot's case? Unless you call someone saying "focus on the engine, not on politics" as being harassment.
- ziolo 2y ago
  They have, yes. Like when they introduced a new Code of Conduct a few years back: https://mindmatters.ai/2018/10/peaceful-code-of-conduct-sparks-rage-in-silicon-valley https://mindmatters.ai/2018/10/peaceful-code-of-conduct-spar...
- 0x_rs 2y ago
  Yes, they previously have been. https://www.theregister.com/2018/10/22/sqlite_code_of_conduct/ https://www.theregister.com/2018/10/22/sqlite_code_of_conduc...

Ekaros 2y ago

Seems like good way to destroy any good will anyone has for your engine... So now that both Godot and Unity are dead, what is next?

Kelteseth 2y ago
It's funny I feel only people how never used Godot call these shots.
pjmlp 2y ago
Unity is quite healthy, because they still yeld a strong position across all console owners, mobile OSes, and the tooling that they offer, additionally the issue was among the indie community, less so with the comercial ones. In any case, they learned the lesson, no one from management responsible for the runtime fee is still at the company, and the runtime fee has been dropped. Alternatively you have Unreal, LibGDX, MonoGame, FNA, Stride, Murder,..... up to do your own engine.
archagon 2y ago
In what way does this tangential community drama affect the viability of Godot as an open source game engine? It’s a non-sequitur.

elmo2you 2y ago

I guess it will take some time for the dust to settle and assess the damage and full course of events. Regardless, from the looks of it so far, this Community Manager should probably be placed on forced leave and be stripped of all privileges, pending a thorough investigation. A psychiatric evaluation might also be warranted. Not because of any political ideology, but simply to assess if this person could and should be held accountable, legally and maybe even financially, for the inflicted damage to Godot as a project/product. So far, it doesn't look good. Many years of hard work (maybe not so much code development but pretty much everything else) may have been irreparably damaged if not evaporated in mere days. Personally, I've been several times in a position where I considered Godot as the basis for application development. In hindsight I am now relieved I did not, for this drama would have turned that into a serious business liability. I can only imagine the (financial) implications for other companies who did pick Godot as a tech to build part of their business upon. While that may be considered collateral and "just the price of doing business", I'd would certainly hold this individual personally responsible for that damage. While a fork may mitigate some of the damage already done, it is not going to fix what went sideways here. Based on just a cursory observation from what happened here, there is no doubt in my mind that (regardless of motivation or justification) this individual should never wield this much power, ever again. If Godot leadership does not take these actions back (into their own hands), it may find itself held accountable for the results of this situation. They may want to go find an experienced law firm too. I doubt this will be the end of this drama for them. While Open Source licenses may divert/absolve legal liability for technical/functionality/code-quality aspects, the same might not be true for liability as the result of harm-inducing behavior of individual people (like the kind that appears to have happened here). If nothing else, let this episode be a lesson for doing proper vetting of people in a position of (potential) power. As most serious businesses know all too well, having anyone with opinions on the extremities of any ideological/political spectrum in a position of power, is typically not a bright idea. Though in this case I’d personally argue it’s a lot worse and appears to involve a mentally unhinged individual. Any reasonable person would have considered and reconsidered the implications of the actions so far taken .. and even then still waited for a considerable body of group consensus would have approved these actions before pressing the red button.

archagon 2y ago

imiric 2y ago

What a shitshow. This type of radical ideology has infested so many companies and open source projects. NixOS, GNOME, Asahi Linux, Elementary OS, Red Hat, IBM... What is the end goal of these political purges? How is hate speech and discrimination against people who disagree with your political views conducive to an open and inclusive environment? This is the same type of behavior they're criticizing the other side of doing. Not only that, but they're vilifying and excluding people who simply object to this behavior. It's hypocrisy and absolute insanity. The only purge that needs to happen is of these SJWs from software projects and companies. The only thing they've achieved in the past decade is to stir some shit where there was none, to divide and exclude rather than diversify and include, and to annoy a whole bunch of people in the process. *Stop making everything political.*

SeanAnderson 2y ago

Godot just posted their damage control response on X: https://x.com/godotfoundation/status/1840721449364988300/photo/1 https://x.com/godotfoundation/status/1840721449364988300/pho... https://x.com/godotfoundation/status/1840721449364988300/photo/2 https://x.com/godotfoundation/status/1840721449364988300/pho... 1) On Friday, we made a tweet that unexpectedly led to a wave of harassment directed at our staff and community. We unequivocally condemn this abuse. The volume of negative engagement overwhelmed our moderation efforts. While attempting to protect the Godot community we mistakenly blocked individuals who were not participating in the harassment. The Godot Foundation Board takes full responsibility for these moderation actions. If you believe you were blocked in error and have not violated our Code of Conduct, please contact us with the form linked below. We are committed to swiftly rectifying any mistakes. We firmly stand by our mission to keep our community spaces free from hate, discrimination, and other toxic behaviors. – The Godot Foundation Board 2) On community moderator Xananax We strongly condemn the harmful language used by Xananax, moderator of an unofficial Godot-related Discord server. We want to clarify that Xananax is not hired by nor a spokesperson for the Godot Foundation. As an organization, we have our own official Discord server, moderated together with new volunteers vetted by our team. – The Godot Foundation I found their responses to be... insufficient and potentially blind to the amount the debacle affected public perception?

Rinzler89 2y ago
>we made a tweet that unexpectedly led to a wave of harassment directed at our staff and community. What terrible gaslighting here, shifting the blame from their community manager in charge doing the harassments, to the community itself as being the harassers.
- Sincere6066 2y ago
  The "community" in this case being someone who complained that game engines were woke.
  - Khaine 2y ago
    Stop it with these lies. Someone got banned for quoting the creator of Godot https://x.com/Cosmic_Scr/status/1840184610862313560 https://x.com/Cosmic_Scr/status/1840184610862313560

Sincere6066 2y ago

[flagged]

bunnycorn 2y ago
Thanks for letting us know.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  I like it when people openly advertise their red flags and mental illnesses. Makes it easy for me to avoid them.

bunnycorn 2y ago

I define myself politically as a Classical Liberal and therefore I strongly oppose pseudoscientific positions like those defended by the Critical Theory folks (aka "woke"). I wholeheartedly support the Godot team. We can't tolerate each other. We can't be friends. I know some people will tell that people like me are wrong, people like them are wrong, that we are both wrong, but you just need to educate yourself politically.

Rinzler89 2y ago
I can't say whether you are wrong, I can only say whether you are mentally ill.