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Amazon employees are 'rage applying' for new jobs after RTO mandate
- sebestindragos 2y agoTime to install https://first2apply.com/ https://first2apply.com/ again :))
- blinded 2y agoNot surprising tbh.
- cratermoon 2y agoJust as Andy hoped. He'll cut headcount without layoffs and the ones left will be the ones who couldn't get jobs elsewhere. Those who couldn't find work elsewhere will be easier to abuse because they will believe they don't have other options.
- latexr 2y agoEnsuring your whole company is staffed by people who do not want to be there and will leave at the first opportunity sounds like a poor strategy.
- jnaina 2y agoAlong with the existing productivity dip due to lowering of the hiring bar to meet DEI KPIs, and with this brain drain of their top talent, it is going to be a rough ride for Amazon.
- Dban1 2y agoyep just look at Ubisoft
- sushid 2y agoHasn't this always been Amazon's strategy? It's never been like Facebook or Google in its ethos.
- kibwen 2y agoPar for the course for Amazon: https://www.vox.com/recode/23170900/leaked-amazon-memo-warehouses-hiring-shortage https://www.vox.com/recode/23170900/leaked-amazon-memo-wareh... Amazon is facing a looming crisis: It could run out of people to hire in its US warehouses by 2024, according to leaked Amazon internal research from mid-2021 that Recode reviewed. [...] “If we continue business as usual, Amazon will deplete the available labor supply in the US network by 2024,” the research, which hasn’t previously been reported, says.
- tbrownaw 2y ago2024 is this year. A web search turned up that same prediction, but nothing that looked like it had actually materialized.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoAmazon has had to raise warehouse pay [1 [2], definitely screams labor shortage to me. This makes sense considering structural demographics and a shrinking participation rate in the US labor force [3]. I would not have expected Amazon to just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and say "we are all out of workers"; they have to compete like everyone else for a shrinking pool of folks. They have run out of folks to abuse at the previous price point. The wage floor will continue to rise. Even Bank of America is raising wages for tellers [4]. Demographics are destiny, all that jazz. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-09-18/amazon-boosts-warehouse-worker-pay-by-at-least-1-50-an-hour https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-09-18/amazon-bo... | https://archive.today/5ODb8 https://archive.today/5ODb8 [2] https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/workplace/amazon-wage-increase-new-benefits-for-hourly-us-employees https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/workplace/amazon-wage-incre... | https://archive.today/fY28B https://archive.today/fY28B [3] https://www.ebri.org/retirement/content/new-research-of-u.s.-labor-force-participation-and-employment-finds-shrinking-prime-age-worker-population-being-filled-by-older-workers https://www.ebri.org/retirement/content/new-research-of-u.s.... ("A new research report published today by the Employee Benefit Research Institute (EBRI) taking a historical look at labor force participation and employment data in the United States found the prime working age population (25–64 years old) has significantly fallen and is being filled by older workers. At the same time, the labor force participation rate of those ages 65 or older has not reached its pre-pandemic level, while that of the prime working age population has reached that level") [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41500201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41500201 ("Bank of America is pledging to pay its bank tellers and other hourly workers at least $24 per hour starting in October. The company says that this pay raise, from $23 per hour currently, will affect “thousands” of its 212,000 employees. The wage increase will particularly affect tellers and other customer-facing employees, such as call-center workers.") (~10K Boomers retire per day, 3.6M per year; ~1.8M people 55+ die every year in the US, ~5k per day; roughly half of which are in the labor force, so ~2.5k workers actively in a job die each day; ~20% of the population is retired today, in 10 years that'll go to ~30%)
- givemeethekeys 2y agoAnd a great way to justify hiring teams overseas.
- throwawaymanbot 2y ago[dead]
- tbrownaw 2y ago> Those who couldn't find work elsewhere will be easier to abuse because they will believe they don't have other options. That seems like an odd goal to assume of someone who needs to keep the company doing well to keep shareholders happy.
- johnnyanmac 2y agoDesperate people work harder and longer for less pay. That's pretty much peak number go up. It's a horrible long term strategy, but companies are not minmaxing for long-term retention, nor even quality at this moment.
- redserk 2y agoOr they’ll do the bare minimum and remain checked out. I’ve seen both types of people stuck in their position. And working harder/longer doesn’t guarantee any degree of quality either.
- Yeul 2y agoSometimes companies forget that their entire existence relies on a middle class that has money to spend. Way back in the 60s in my country the government in consultation with the business world came up with a genius idea: give everyone a bonus pay check to spend on holidays. It created entire leisure industries nobody could imagine.
- blastonico 2y ago> the ones left will be the ones who couldn't get jobs elsewhere. Oh, come on. There're people that like working in the office. It's unfair to label them as "the ones who couldn't get jobs elsewhere".
- ants_everywhere 2y agoRight. We're only really dealing with the population of employees who strongly prefer working from home. That's likely disproportionately employees who have families (hence a commute), so skew older and more senior. These employees will take the secret sauce they learned over many years at Amazon and spread it to startups and other orgs. It's kind of like fungus spore dispersal.
- Insanity 2y agoAnecdata, the younger people in my team are reacting worse than the more senior ones. Senior / more tenured their response has been: "well, this is how it was for the past 20 years before COVID". While the juniors are the ones who dislike the idea of long commutes, less WLB (no more quick errands during work) etc.
- danillonunes 2y agoYeah. You can't have an office affair if you WFH.
- Insanity 2y ago100%, some people do work better from the office. But, from experience managing teams in the company above, those are far and few between.
- cratermoon 2y agoI struggled with the wording there and got it wrong. I didn't intend to imply incompetence or anything negative. Some folks have made choices to commit to things and take up responsibilities requiring stable, location-based employment. "Couldn't get jobs" should be taken to encompass anyone that is subject to labor market friction of any sort.
- kelseyfrog 2y agoDay 2 strategy. Sad.
- toomuchtodo 2y agohttps://www.visualcapitalist.com/charted-how-american-tech-workers-feel-about-joining-a-union/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/charted-how-american-tech-w...
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- bloomingeek 2y agoImagine that, a multi-billion dollar company who treats valued employee like just-a-number/trash. I wonder if there's someway they could group together and somehow force the company to recognize their numbers and their value?
- infocollector 2y agoPerhaps you are suggesting trying to Unionize? In most public sector unions, the politicians hold all the cards of a union (Example: http://tiny.cc/b7xnzz http://tiny.cc/b7xnzz). I wonder any checks on Amazon type companies is possible in the US, even if employees were successful in forming a union.
- rightdang 2y ago[flagged]
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- dylan604 2y agoare you saying that $1.97T is not made up of multi-billions?
- Loughla 2y agoI feel like multi-billion dollar companies are the only ones who can really afford to treat their employees like trash. For every person willing to leave, I'm betting they can find 10 others who are as qualified just because they can have crazy pay scales.
- prng2021 2y agoIf you currently work at a publicly traded company, you're definitely just a number. If your company doesn't show continuous growth quarter after quarter and they announce layoffs, your stock will likely jump up that day. Amazon has survived the dotcom bubble collapse, the Great Recession, and a global pandemic. Whatever happens here with talent loss will be meaningless.
- shagie 2y agoAmazon's RTO is likely worth $100M / year based on the tax subsidies they haven't gotten from Seattle for 2022, 2023, and 2024. https://goodjobsfirst.org/amazon-tracker/?state=Washington https://goodjobsfirst.org/amazon-tracker/?state=Washington They get these subsidies based on having people employed in the office and generating economic activity in the area where they work, and public transport utilization, and so on. For example... public transport in Seattle: https://www.axios.com/local/seattle/2023/12/18/seattle-area-transit-use-lags-pre-pandemic-levels-by-a-lot https://www.axios.com/local/seattle/2023/12/18/seattle-area-... It dropped from 20m / year in 2019 to 10m / year in 2023. Amazon claims that with RTO, 7.5m of those trips are from Amazon employees that Amazon pays for ( https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/community/amazon-return-to-office-downtown-seattle-revival https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/community/amazon-return-to-... ) - that's either the difference in public transportation or 75% of the current ridership depending on when this was measured. That's likely a key part of why there's an RTO mandate - Seattle wants the economic activity back and isn't giving Amazon any more tax credits to the tune of $100M until they get their employees back in the buildings.
- Mengkudulangsat 2y agoWow. Talk about perverse incentives!
- bongodongobob 2y agoWhat is perverse?
- fuzzfactor 2y agoWhat is incentive? Asking for a friend, an Amazon employee . . .
- Terr_ 2y agoThe wasteful inefficiencies of unnecessary commuting?
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- hinkley 2y agoI should have done more job hunting last month.
- tvontheradio99 2y agoThe thing about this kind of story is they could have found two employees "rage applying" for new jobs and then they can say "employees," as if it's thousands. Not sticking up for the company, but this kind of reporting trick is pretty douchey.
- amznsdm123 2y agoLike other commenters have observed: Local government has likely realized that tax revenues have increased with Amazon's three-day RTO over the past year and naturally wants more of it now. The last layoff was bottom-heavy, primarily targeting L4s and L5s. This has left Amazon top-heavy. One of the reasons why no raise this year L6 and above. Reckless promotions over the past three years have driven salary expenses higher. I see PEs in my organization who don’t deserve their titles. Replacing tenured employees with fresh graduates could lower the company's salary expenses. Additionally, I believe that L5s and below tend to spend more on food, transportation, and other expenses compared to seasoned employees who have families and more significant expenditures. This could lead to increased revenue for the local government—a win-win for both parties. Amazon does not want to spend money on severance, as being frugal is one of its leadership principles. The company is likely trying different tactics to encourage people to leave, using severance as a last resort. I personally feel that Amazon overhired by around 50,000 during the pandemic, and the layoff of 27,000 was suboptimal. Why now? Aside from local government pressure to drive state revenue, I believe leadership has recognized that Amazon's stock and revenue are likely to remain flat in the upcoming years, making significant growth unlikely as it was in the past. They would want to optimize profits, naturally leading to more junior hires if needed, forcing seniors out, and keeping local government satisfied. A win-win for all? My advice to Jassy and the S-Team: 1. Ensure that your flattening of the curve exercise is fair at all levels, guaranteeing each level a degree of influence not just at the immediate level but throughout their organization. I have seen two L7s managing 40 people, with no reporting structure indicating a reasonable span of control. Establish rules such that L6s have 8 (min) to 10 (max) reports, L7s manage between 48 (6 teams of 8) to 70 (9 teams of 8), Directors handle 4 * 50 = 200 (175 min, 250 max), VPs oversee 800 to 1200, and SVPs manage 10,000 to 15,000. If the desired corporate org size is 250,000, ensure there are around 25 SVPs, 250 VPs, 1,250 Directors, 4,200 L7s, and 25,000 L6 managers. 2. Reassess the roles of PMTs and TPMs and the value they bring. Rarely do these individuals fulfill their intended roles. Their responsibilities need to be clearly defined, and OKRs must be set for what they are expected to accomplish. It’s not their fault; VPs, L8s, and L7s often offload their tasks onto them. Check when the last time these leaders authored say strategic documents themselves. 3. Many Kingpin goals are lacking. They rarely contain good metrics as success criteria or justifications for prioritization. Your L8s are unlikely to adopt metrics-driven goals, often opting for launch goals instead. I would bet that 70% of goals are launch oriented rather than metric driven. Establish a rule that at least 80% of goals at the Director level should be measured by metrics. Each Director should have one S-Team goal; otherwise, what is the purpose of a Director managing a 200-person organization? Startups build billion-dollar businesses with similar-sized teams. Shouldn't Directors be able to do the same? Encourage them to adopt S-Team metrics-driven goals. If they cannot, reconsider the necessity of the L8 position in that organization. 4. There is too much bias during talent reviews. Your HRBPs focus primarily on diversity bias (which is important) but rarely assess bias from other angles. I have seen top-performing individuals marked as LE for trivial reasons. Your HRBP organization needs to be revamped and trained to look beyond diversity bias. In talent reviews, they often aim to please the L8s they support, leading to agreement rather than objective assessments. Many more suggestions, but I’m too tired to write them all out.