4 ms·

It's this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanomeline/trospium_chloride https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanomeline/trospium_chloride

kstrauser 2y ago
> M4 and M1 receptor stimulation indirectly rebalances dopaminergic and glutamatergic circuits involved in the symptoms associated with neurological and neuropsychiatric diseases such as schizophrenia and Alzheimer's disease. Whoa. Wonder if that's being evaluated?
- jmcgough 2y ago
  Yes, it's being tested for autism as well.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    I wonder what their hopes are for autism. I think the detail-oriented (or at least logic-oriented) thinking at least is an intrinsic part of brain development in autistics, but I wonder if it'll ever be possible to control certain other symptoms of autism through medication.
    - consteval 2y ago
      It could very well become a cost/reward analysis thing since Autism is a spectrum disorder. People who are high-functioning will probably be fine without the drug, but people who are, for example, non-verbal may be more willing to take it. I'm assuming such a drug would have drastic drawbacks in terms of how Autistic people think. Similar to other drugs that address mental state, they might not feel like themselves.
      - LoganDark 2y ago
        > I'm assuming such a drug would have drastic drawbacks in terms of how Autistic people think. Similar to other drugs that address mental state, they might not feel like themselves. Knowing how I think, and how I use knowledge, I'm not sure that I'd be better at anything if a drug altered my ability to think in detail. Even if something made me non-autistic like magic, I have a lifetime of autistic knowledge that is structured differently than what a non-autistic brain would need. I could have to learn everything all over again if I were to become unable to comprehend/assemble the logical building blocks that I normally use to do everything. So I have to assume the drug doesn't actually attempt to treat the core defining trait of autism and only attempts to treat some of the side effects. As far as I'm aware, even though autism is a spectrum, every brain that is autistic has a particularly distinctive redistribution of connections, which is what results in basically everything. This redistribution is likely what results in the overly logical/analytical thinking (whether it's bottom-up or top-down), although I don't think anyone's been able to prove or disprove that, it's just a correlation.
        consteval 2y ago
        Right, but we need to consider outcomes. If such a drug could help those who can't take care of themselves, take care of themselves, that's a very good outcome. An outcome for someone like you wouldn't be very good so it doesn't matter much. But for some, this could be the difference between being institutionalized forever versus living a somewhat independent life.
therein 2y ago
Co-administration of an agonist and an antagonist for the same pharmacophore seems like an interesting approach.
- nwienert 2y ago
  Looks like the antagonist is only outside the brain, so it works to counteract the side-effects, pretty cool. I wanted sort of the opposite of this for opioids - work in the body, not the brain. There's been a few attempts but non that passed trials.
  - swores 2y ago
    Would the opposite (work in the brain but not the body) also be a healthier alternative for people addicted to getting high on opiates?
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      Yeah, because it is the high they are after, but not working in the brain would make opioids completely useless for depression and anxiety (for which it really does wonders).
      - nwienert 2y ago
        My want is for relieving pain in the body without making me feel high, I actually assumed you want it in the body not brain, as the brain effects are the feel-good effects, but really not sure or familiar with how they work.
        nullindividual 2y ago
        Ibuprofen and acetaminophen may already be that option. https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/2018/0301/p348.html https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/2018/0301/p348.html I believe there are other studies besides this that points to these two OTC pain relievers as being 'just as good' as opiates.

kstrauser 2y ago

> M4 and M1 receptor stimulation indirectly rebalances dopaminergic and glutamatergic circuits involved in the symptoms associated with neurological and neuropsychiatric diseases such as schizophrenia and Alzheimer's disease. Whoa. Wonder if that's being evaluated?

jmcgough 2y ago
Yes, it's being tested for autism as well.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  I wonder what their hopes are for autism. I think the detail-oriented (or at least logic-oriented) thinking at least is an intrinsic part of brain development in autistics, but I wonder if it'll ever be possible to control certain other symptoms of autism through medication.
  - consteval 2y ago
    It could very well become a cost/reward analysis thing since Autism is a spectrum disorder. People who are high-functioning will probably be fine without the drug, but people who are, for example, non-verbal may be more willing to take it. I'm assuming such a drug would have drastic drawbacks in terms of how Autistic people think. Similar to other drugs that address mental state, they might not feel like themselves.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      > I'm assuming such a drug would have drastic drawbacks in terms of how Autistic people think. Similar to other drugs that address mental state, they might not feel like themselves. Knowing how I think, and how I use knowledge, I'm not sure that I'd be better at anything if a drug altered my ability to think in detail. Even if something made me non-autistic like magic, I have a lifetime of autistic knowledge that is structured differently than what a non-autistic brain would need. I could have to learn everything all over again if I were to become unable to comprehend/assemble the logical building blocks that I normally use to do everything. So I have to assume the drug doesn't actually attempt to treat the core defining trait of autism and only attempts to treat some of the side effects. As far as I'm aware, even though autism is a spectrum, every brain that is autistic has a particularly distinctive redistribution of connections, which is what results in basically everything. This redistribution is likely what results in the overly logical/analytical thinking (whether it's bottom-up or top-down), although I don't think anyone's been able to prove or disprove that, it's just a correlation.
      - consteval 2y ago
        Right, but we need to consider outcomes. If such a drug could help those who can't take care of themselves, take care of themselves, that's a very good outcome. An outcome for someone like you wouldn't be very good so it doesn't matter much. But for some, this could be the difference between being institutionalized forever versus living a somewhat independent life.

therein 2y ago

Co-administration of an agonist and an antagonist for the same pharmacophore seems like an interesting approach.

nwienert 2y ago
Looks like the antagonist is only outside the brain, so it works to counteract the side-effects, pretty cool. I wanted sort of the opposite of this for opioids - work in the body, not the brain. There's been a few attempts but non that passed trials.
- swores 2y ago
  Would the opposite (work in the brain but not the body) also be a healthier alternative for people addicted to getting high on opiates?
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    Yeah, because it is the high they are after, but not working in the brain would make opioids completely useless for depression and anxiety (for which it really does wonders).
    - nwienert 2y ago
      My want is for relieving pain in the body without making me feel high, I actually assumed you want it in the body not brain, as the brain effects are the feel-good effects, but really not sure or familiar with how they work.
      - nullindividual 2y ago
        Ibuprofen and acetaminophen may already be that option. https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/2018/0301/p348.html https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/2018/0301/p348.html I believe there are other studies besides this that points to these two OTC pain relievers as being 'just as good' as opiates.