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I find it very surprising that prestigious colleges are willing to outsource their online courses at the expense of diluting their own brand. I guess I should

I find it very surprising that prestigious colleges are willing to outsource their online courses at the expense of diluting their own brand. I guess I should not be that surprised, college admins are some of the worst business people on the planet.

hnfong 2y ago
But they are already delegating teaching (of undergrad level at least) to people who generally aren't interested in teaching...
- HPsquared 2y ago
  Academia is mostly about multi-level marketing. Teaching and research are side effects. There are a lot of similarities to nightclub promotion.
- tmpz22 2y ago
  University of Oregon did a lot of this around 2015. Imagine the passion a post-grad math scholar has for teaching calculus to undergrads. Zero.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- linguae 2y ago
  Yup; this is common at research universities, where professors’ tenure evaluations are largely based on research accomplishments and fundraising. I’ve had many friends tell me that they had better experiences with community college professors compared to university professors, since the community college professors are there to teach. (Disclaimer: I am a new community college instructor of computer science who worked as a researcher in industry for nine years before wanting a career change.)
  - akomtu 2y ago
    What's "tenure evaluation"?
    - linguae 2y ago
      Typically when a person is hired for a tenure-track professorship at a university, that person doesn’t immediately start out with tenure, which is a status that means the professor cannot be fired without cause. Rather, most professors start out as assistant professors who have six years to prove to the university and their peers that they can meet the university’s bar regarding research productivity, teaching, and service (to the university, the community, the discipline the professor researches, and society). During the sixth year of employment the university evaluates the professor’s contributions and then decides whether to grant that professor tenure. If the professor is granted tenure, then the professor is usually promoted to associate professor and doesn’t need to worry about getting fired except in cases of misconduct (e.g., a professor taking an unapproved vacation in the middle of the semester; a professor having an inappropriate relationship with a student, postdoc, or advisee; a professor caught plagiarizing, etc.), though layoffs could still happen. However, if a professor is denied tenure, while there is usually an appeals process, the professor isn’t allowed to stay at that university beyond the end of the sixth year, and so the professor must move on, either to another university or often to another career.
    - eszed 2y ago
      Everything linguae says is correct. The additional bit of the system to understand is that the actual teaching (of undergraduate courses) is done by "Adjuncts", who are holders of advanced degrees, but on contract (ie, not salaried employees of the institution) for each class. Adjuncts generally earn poverty wages, and exist in a state of profound financial and existential insecurity. Universities won't hire any individual adjunct for more than a certain number of classes per term (lest they become a full-time employee, to whom they owe health insurance and other benefits), so adjuncts usually need find employment with more than one institution, or else a secondary job to make ends meet (I met folks, teaching at universities you've heard of, working in restaurants and fast-food on the side). Even worse, universities (by and large; maybe there are honorable exceptions I've not heard of) will not consider their adjuncts for promotion to tenure-track positions. Even worser, other universities likely won't consider you for tenure-track if you've adjuncted elsewhere - so, even if you've managed to publish some interesting papers on top of your teaching grind (I'm coming from a Humanities background, where that's more possible than in STEM), the people who know you won't hire you, and you aren't able to claim your association with [Prestigious Institution] because the stench of "Adjunct" hangs about it. (The additional point about community colleges is correct. You will often find better undergraduate instruction - from imminently qualified professors - there than you will at brand-name universities. However, some community college systems are also starting to adjunct their classes, as a cost-saving measure.) There's a concept of "Elite Overproduction", that I think explains the phenomenon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction This is how empires fall.
badlibrarian 2y ago
Parodies of the atrocious Wharton offerings during the pandemic referred to the overall effort as "Whoreton." Some would say it's destruction not dilution.
SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
It’s not clear that their brand actually gets diluted. Lots of top-tier universities run extension schools and certification programs. I suspect that it really is free money from the school’s perspective, even accounting for the occasional expose.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- game_the0ry 2y ago
  Given the recent events, I would say even top-tier universities are quickly destroying their own brands, and outsourcing their online education is one way they're doing it.
xyst 2y ago
If you think of these entities as plain ol businesses instead of “prestigious colleges”. Then nothing will surprise you. College used to be very affordable. Before the massive injection of funds from the “student loan bubble”, you could take on a minimum wage summer job and pay for a semester of college and living expenses. Now, college tuition has far outpaced the cost of living. And subsequent entities (ie, book publishers) are increase the cost of the books part of the courses. A parasite on top of a parasite. I remember older editions of introductory course textbooks cost 10X than the latest edition. What changed between the latest and oldest? The publisher moved the chapters around. The worst part of it is that the author doesn’t even get paid. It was at that point, I began pirating every textbook I was forced to buy and shared it with all the classmates at the start of every semester. Also, college today is less of an institution for learning and more of a 4-yr “experience”. Colleges (private and public) have amenities such as “lazy rivers”, “luxury” dorms, zoos to attract victims to their ~~~scam~~~ institution. I feel society has oversold the idea of college and looked down upon trades colleges. We honestly need more trades people rather than STEM, doctors, and (especially) lawyers. If I had to start over, I would probably be an electrician. Maybe plumber. Maybe architect with an emphasis on green/sustainable housing and building practices.
- eszed 2y ago
  When I was teaching university I made it a point to put all class materials on two-hour reserve at the library, and promised my classes that if those were oversubscribed that I would deposit more copies. (I also made oblique references to alternate methods of acquisition: "ask your nerdiest friend what that means".) That may have contravened the college's contract with Barnes and Noble (I mean, the parenthetical bit definitely did), but fuck them. I served my students' best interests, never anyone else's.

hnfong 2y ago

But they are already delegating teaching (of undergrad level at least) to people who generally aren't interested in teaching...

HPsquared 2y ago
Academia is mostly about multi-level marketing. Teaching and research are side effects. There are a lot of similarities to nightclub promotion.
tmpz22 2y ago
University of Oregon did a lot of this around 2015. Imagine the passion a post-grad math scholar has for teaching calculus to undergrads. Zero.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
linguae 2y ago
Yup; this is common at research universities, where professors’ tenure evaluations are largely based on research accomplishments and fundraising. I’ve had many friends tell me that they had better experiences with community college professors compared to university professors, since the community college professors are there to teach. (Disclaimer: I am a new community college instructor of computer science who worked as a researcher in industry for nine years before wanting a career change.)
- akomtu 2y ago
  What's "tenure evaluation"?
  - linguae 2y ago
    Typically when a person is hired for a tenure-track professorship at a university, that person doesn’t immediately start out with tenure, which is a status that means the professor cannot be fired without cause. Rather, most professors start out as assistant professors who have six years to prove to the university and their peers that they can meet the university’s bar regarding research productivity, teaching, and service (to the university, the community, the discipline the professor researches, and society). During the sixth year of employment the university evaluates the professor’s contributions and then decides whether to grant that professor tenure. If the professor is granted tenure, then the professor is usually promoted to associate professor and doesn’t need to worry about getting fired except in cases of misconduct (e.g., a professor taking an unapproved vacation in the middle of the semester; a professor having an inappropriate relationship with a student, postdoc, or advisee; a professor caught plagiarizing, etc.), though layoffs could still happen. However, if a professor is denied tenure, while there is usually an appeals process, the professor isn’t allowed to stay at that university beyond the end of the sixth year, and so the professor must move on, either to another university or often to another career.
  - eszed 2y ago
    Everything linguae says is correct. The additional bit of the system to understand is that the actual teaching (of undergraduate courses) is done by "Adjuncts", who are holders of advanced degrees, but on contract (ie, not salaried employees of the institution) for each class. Adjuncts generally earn poverty wages, and exist in a state of profound financial and existential insecurity. Universities won't hire any individual adjunct for more than a certain number of classes per term (lest they become a full-time employee, to whom they owe health insurance and other benefits), so adjuncts usually need find employment with more than one institution, or else a secondary job to make ends meet (I met folks, teaching at universities you've heard of, working in restaurants and fast-food on the side). Even worse, universities (by and large; maybe there are honorable exceptions I've not heard of) will not consider their adjuncts for promotion to tenure-track positions. Even worser, other universities likely won't consider you for tenure-track if you've adjuncted elsewhere - so, even if you've managed to publish some interesting papers on top of your teaching grind (I'm coming from a Humanities background, where that's more possible than in STEM), the people who know you won't hire you, and you aren't able to claim your association with [Prestigious Institution] because the stench of "Adjunct" hangs about it. (The additional point about community colleges is correct. You will often find better undergraduate instruction - from imminently qualified professors - there than you will at brand-name universities. However, some community college systems are also starting to adjunct their classes, as a cost-saving measure.) There's a concept of "Elite Overproduction", that I think explains the phenomenon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction This is how empires fall.

badlibrarian 2y ago

Parodies of the atrocious Wharton offerings during the pandemic referred to the overall effort as "Whoreton." Some would say it's destruction not dilution.

SpicyLemonZest 2y ago

It’s not clear that their brand actually gets diluted. Lots of top-tier universities run extension schools and certification programs. I suspect that it really is free money from the school’s perspective, even accounting for the occasional expose.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
game_the0ry 2y ago
Given the recent events, I would say even top-tier universities are quickly destroying their own brands, and outsourcing their online education is one way they're doing it.

xyst 2y ago

If you think of these entities as plain ol businesses instead of “prestigious colleges”. Then nothing will surprise you. College used to be very affordable. Before the massive injection of funds from the “student loan bubble”, you could take on a minimum wage summer job and pay for a semester of college and living expenses. Now, college tuition has far outpaced the cost of living. And subsequent entities (ie, book publishers) are increase the cost of the books part of the courses. A parasite on top of a parasite. I remember older editions of introductory course textbooks cost 10X than the latest edition. What changed between the latest and oldest? The publisher moved the chapters around. The worst part of it is that the author doesn’t even get paid. It was at that point, I began pirating every textbook I was forced to buy and shared it with all the classmates at the start of every semester. Also, college today is less of an institution for learning and more of a 4-yr “experience”. Colleges (private and public) have amenities such as “lazy rivers”, “luxury” dorms, zoos to attract victims to their ~~~scam~~~ institution. I feel society has oversold the idea of college and looked down upon trades colleges. We honestly need more trades people rather than STEM, doctors, and (especially) lawyers. If I had to start over, I would probably be an electrician. Maybe plumber. Maybe architect with an emphasis on green/sustainable housing and building practices.

eszed 2y ago
When I was teaching university I made it a point to put all class materials on two-hour reserve at the library, and promised my classes that if those were oversubscribed that I would deposit more copies. (I also made oblique references to alternate methods of acquisition: "ask your nerdiest friend what that means".) That may have contravened the college's contract with Barnes and Noble (I mean, the parenthetical bit definitely did), but fuck them. I served my students' best interests, never anyone else's.