4 ms·

Scientific publishing has been gamed to advance scientists’ careers

westurner 2y ago
Grants, Impact Factor, can't publish or apply for a grant because I don't have university affiliation, Exclusivity agreement, you can only upload the preprint to ArXiV because you paid a journal an application fee and they're going to take all of the returns from distributing your work with threaded comments. What other industry must pay an application fee to give an exclusive to a government-granted Open Access research study? You should tell them that they must pay you. (And that they must host [linked] data, and reproducible containers, and code.)
jmclnx 2y ago
Sadly, these days, seems every business eventually evolves into a ponzi scheme. It is like the theory about evolution to Crab like creatures over the eons, but for businesses :)
stavros 2y ago
Is the article somewhere? I just see a summary.
- bbor 2y ago
  It's the blue "Free Trial" button below the dozen or so advertisements. Ahh, the irony! Sadly, the tagline doesn't seem to tease any information at all besides the very well known problems with modern journal culture, so it wasn't enough for me to sign up for this random website. Plus, accusing science journalists of "indoctrination" when they're just underpaid nerds trying their best doesn't help! Every time I click any other link, I get more appreciative of Substack's quality & UX...
  - stavros 2y ago
    Ahh, thank you. Usually these sites show the first few paragraphs, and then fade into the button. On my phone, the "free trial" button is below the "related articles", so it looks generic.
daft_pink 2y ago
I only see the summary but I am not sure the word ponzi is appropriate.
- T-A 2y ago
  You prefer profzi? https://phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=1144 https://phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=1144
jfengel 2y ago
I can't find the actual text either, but boy, "squatters of the broken records of ideological mantras" rubs me the wrong way. I hear it all the time, from cranks who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. They first spew gibberish, then vitriol that people won't devote time to translating the gibberish. And they certainly won't listen, with the insuperable defense that any explanation from the scientific orthodoxy means you're part of the cabal. Yeah, there is a hell of a lot wrong with publishing. But it's not a "Ponzi scheme" because ultimately progress does get made. There is an underlying value that a Ponzi scheme lacks by definition. And we can't fix the real problems without a serious statement of the problem. Science is fundamentally hard. There are a lot of people doing a lot of work and nobody has time for more than a miniscule fraction. Keeping up is impossible, even when everyone is working in good faith, which not everyone is. Don't trivialize the problem by saying "the real solution is to listen to me and ignore everyone else".
GeekyBear 2y ago
Publish or perish is the root cause behind the flood of fraudulent studies seen in recent years.
octopod12 2y ago
the title can be restated as "outcomes are produced by incentives" and applies to anything including: college admissions, climbing the corporate ladder etc. any system is gamed by its participants, and so, the system design is critical to ensure whatever the system wants to sustain. the design of disincentives (or punishments) is harder - coz you cannot jail a scientist for poor me-too publications, or papers that self-claim "an innovative approach to this or that" Just as in corporate orgs, or societies, the culture that is fostered plays a critical role. Once rot takes over, it is hard to eradicate.
orev 2y ago
Science works on long (often generational) timelines. Eventually the charlatans are weeded out, even if it’s after they’re dead. It’s a messy process but you have to dig through dirt to find the gems.
DanielleMolloy 2y ago
Here is the link to the full text: https://iai.tv/articles/science-publishing-is-a-multimillion-dollar-ponzi-scheme-auid-2953?_auid=2020 https://iai.tv/articles/science-publishing-is-a-multimillion... @dang: Could you edit this, please?
- dang 2y ago
  Ok, changed from https://iai.tv/articles/science-publishing-is-a-multimillion-dollar-ponzi-scheme-auid-2953 https://iai.tv/articles/science-publishing-is-a-multimillion...
  - DanielleMolloy 2y ago
    Big thanks for this!
drewcoo 2y ago
Science is captured by money? Blame the scientists. Never ever blame the monied interests. That would be anti-capitalist.

Grants, Impact Factor, can't publish or apply for a grant because I don't have university affiliation, Exclusivity agreement, you can only upload the preprint to ArXiV because you paid a journal an application fee and they're going to take all of the returns from distributing your work with threaded comments. What other industry must pay an application fee to give an exclusive to a government-granted Open Access research study? You should tell them that they must pay you. (And that they must host [linked] data, and reproducible containers, and code.)

jmclnx 2y ago

Sadly, these days, seems every business eventually evolves into a ponzi scheme. It is like the theory about evolution to Crab like creatures over the eons, but for businesses :)

stavros 2y ago

Is the article somewhere? I just see a summary.

bbor 2y ago
It's the blue "Free Trial" button below the dozen or so advertisements. Ahh, the irony! Sadly, the tagline doesn't seem to tease any information at all besides the very well known problems with modern journal culture, so it wasn't enough for me to sign up for this random website. Plus, accusing science journalists of "indoctrination" when they're just underpaid nerds trying their best doesn't help! Every time I click any other link, I get more appreciative of Substack's quality & UX...
- stavros 2y ago
  Ahh, thank you. Usually these sites show the first few paragraphs, and then fade into the button. On my phone, the "free trial" button is below the "related articles", so it looks generic.

daft_pink 2y ago

I only see the summary but I am not sure the word ponzi is appropriate.

T-A 2y ago
You prefer profzi? https://phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=1144 https://phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=1144

jfengel 2y ago

I can't find the actual text either, but boy, "squatters of the broken records of ideological mantras" rubs me the wrong way. I hear it all the time, from cranks who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. They first spew gibberish, then vitriol that people won't devote time to translating the gibberish. And they certainly won't listen, with the insuperable defense that any explanation from the scientific orthodoxy means you're part of the cabal. Yeah, there is a hell of a lot wrong with publishing. But it's not a "Ponzi scheme" because ultimately progress does get made. There is an underlying value that a Ponzi scheme lacks by definition. And we can't fix the real problems without a serious statement of the problem. Science is fundamentally hard. There are a lot of people doing a lot of work and nobody has time for more than a miniscule fraction. Keeping up is impossible, even when everyone is working in good faith, which not everyone is. Don't trivialize the problem by saying "the real solution is to listen to me and ignore everyone else".

GeekyBear 2y ago

Publish or perish is the root cause behind the flood of fraudulent studies seen in recent years.

octopod12 2y ago

the title can be restated as "outcomes are produced by incentives" and applies to anything including: college admissions, climbing the corporate ladder etc. any system is gamed by its participants, and so, the system design is critical to ensure whatever the system wants to sustain. the design of disincentives (or punishments) is harder - coz you cannot jail a scientist for poor me-too publications, or papers that self-claim "an innovative approach to this or that" Just as in corporate orgs, or societies, the culture that is fostered plays a critical role. Once rot takes over, it is hard to eradicate.

orev 2y ago

Science works on long (often generational) timelines. Eventually the charlatans are weeded out, even if it’s after they’re dead. It’s a messy process but you have to dig through dirt to find the gems.

DanielleMolloy 2y ago

Here is the link to the full text: https://iai.tv/articles/science-publishing-is-a-multimillion-dollar-ponzi-scheme-auid-2953?_auid=2020 https://iai.tv/articles/science-publishing-is-a-multimillion... @dang: Could you edit this, please?

dang 2y ago
Ok, changed from https://iai.tv/articles/science-publishing-is-a-multimillion-dollar-ponzi-scheme-auid-2953 https://iai.tv/articles/science-publishing-is-a-multimillion...
- DanielleMolloy 2y ago
  Big thanks for this!

drewcoo 2y ago

Science is captured by money? Blame the scientists. Never ever blame the monied interests. That would be anti-capitalist.