3 ms·

My car drives me all over town without intervention (on 12.3.6, and now on 12.5.4). It’s beyond confusing to be constantly told it doesn’t, when I have never ta

My car drives me all over town without intervention (on 12.3.6, and now on 12.5.4). It’s beyond confusing to be constantly told it doesn’t, when I have never taken over for a safety issue. Only for cases where it’s being too hesitant. 2020 Model 3. I bought a used Tesla and had very low expectations for FSD’s usefulness, and those were shattered. All my complaints are stylistic - accelerates a bit too quick, hesitates a bit longer in some cases. Steering wheel is a bit jumpy on turns at low speeds, but not unsafe. The only explanation I can come up with is that there is either a well-motivated group that wants FSD to be bad, or there is some huge variation between vehicles and I lucked out on my car’s cameras being aligned right or something. Maybe the roads in my area are easier than normal, but I’m in a large non-California metro area, so I don’t think I’m unrepresentative. > AMCI found that, on average, when operating FSD, human intervention is required at least once every 13 miles to maintain safe operation. I drove a 200 mile road trip last week, combination of city, suburb, interstate, rural. Didn’t take over except to pull in/out of driveways. So this statement is just mind boggling - implies that my drive last week was, like, a 3 or 4 sigma event. But I’ve done it more than once. At some point, it stops being anecdotes and starts being “I simple cannot square your number with my experience” Last time I said something positive about FSD here, someone suggested I’m simply forgetting the many times it must try to kill me. Debates around this get wild. I will not reply to anything negative below, because I’ve learned it’s much more fun to have my car drive me around town than argue with people who insist it can’t.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
whaaaaat 2y ago
> It’s beyond confusing to be constantly told it doesn’t I don't think I've seen any assertions here (or elsewhere) that FSD doesn't work in rogerrogerr's car. I've seen LOTS of assertions (and plenty of video evidence) that it doesn't work in other cars, and that it behaves unpredictably. This is why data over many samples is important. Maybe you've got an environment where it happens to work really well. Maybe it's probabilistic and you are the person who keeps rolling well on your random dice rolls. There's plenty of evidence the system is not generally safe, even if your personal anecdotes are that it is.
add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
"I've driven drunk many times, and I've never been in an accident. It’s beyond confusing to be constantly told it's an unsafe way to drive. The only explanation I can come up with is that there is either a well-motivated group that _wants_ drunk driving to be unsafe."
- enslavedrobot 2y ago
  A human + FSD on is statistically safer than driving with it on. People without FSD are the drunk drivers here.
  - enslavedrobot 2y ago
    *without it on.
foobazgt 2y ago
I recently got 12.5.4, but haven't put it through the paces yet. My personal experience has been that I don't see very many (any?), critical interventions now. It seems to be handling the more complicated situations like unprotected left turns, roundabouts, etc smoothly. However, it still doesn't serve a valuable purpose for me yet. I can't take my eyes off the road or my hands off the wheel. Instead, it's the opposite - I must still be hyper vigilante. In fact, it's even worse than that. Because it doesn't drive how I would, I find myself constantly intervening. E.G. I take over when I know there's a good spot to merge for an upcoming turn, but it's delaying the merge. You can force fsd to merge by signaling, but the navigable gaps between vehicles in heavy traffic can disappear faster than fsd will perform the merge. Then the maneuver shifts from reasonable to rude. If I were just a passenger in the vehicle, I would probably care much less. But right now I'm the operator. I don't know that anyone will ever train vehicles to behave how you would prefer to drive. I think the gold standard will rather be to behave as you find acceptable as a passenger. For now, I'm appreciating the much improved summons. Having your vehicle pick you up in the rain is super nice.
- rogerrogerr 2y ago
  Breaking my no-replying rule because you seem reasonable and have real experience with the topic. Just wanted to reply to this: > However, it still doesn't serve a valuable purpose for me yet. I can't take my eyes off the road or my hands off the wheel. Agree - it doesn’t allow me to open a laptop and get something else useful done. In that sense, it’s not returning any time to me. But to me, it feels much the same as cruise control: it removes a set of monotonous tasks that take up some part of my brain. When I’m not needing to keep a car between lane lines and react immediately to the car ahead slowing down, I’m getting free cycles to look other places. I’m finding I spend a lot more time looking in the mirrors, looking much further ahead down the road, etc. I’m quite sure that me + FSD is safer than just me driving, simply because I’m looking much further ahead and behind. It turns driving into less of a tactical activity and more strategic. It feels almost like being a passenger for a new driver. You can be pretty sure they aren’t going to just dive out of the lane and kill you, so you can look far ahead for anything weird that might trip them up.
  - 2y ago
vladgur 2y ago
Out of curiosity - what do you do when your car just drives for you but you can’t be doing other things — how do you not doze off?
- rogerrogerr 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41678044 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41678044 I look far ahead, look in the mirrors, look for anything that might trip it up. Basically all the things the state’s driver’s handbook says you’re supposed to be doing, but 80% of the time instead of 20% because the basic “follow lane lines, don’t hit the car ahead” task is delegated to the car. It feels much like cruise control on a freeway; the brain cycles you’d spend monitoring and controlling speed are allocated elsewhere. I’ve developed the same hook in my brain for “why am I lanekeeping manually” as I used to have for “why am I controlling speed manually”. It’s a useful task offload.
mentalfist 2y ago
The 2020 Model 3 had radar. Leon wanted to cut costs and phased it out in 2021.
- rogerrogerr 2y ago
  FSD doesn’t use radar in any cars; it’s not an input. Service will even disconnect it when they have the chance. So no, this is not a case of 2020 cars having an advantage somehow. If anything, I have a less capable computer & sensor suite than the HW4 2024’s.
nunez 2y ago
Can confirm; 3000+ miles on FSD 12 in our 2024 Model 3 with minimal interventions. It's come a long long LONG way since FSD 10.
maxerickson 2y ago
It could be that your assessment of the safety of the system is bad. I'm not arguing whether it is or isn't, I'm pointing out the possibility. There are lots of terrible drivers everywhere, so it can be a real one.
- rogerrogerr 2y ago
  Maybe; obviously it’s unfalsifiable on the internet. The only objective signal I can provide is that I’ve driven hundreds of thousands of miles without a single incident, accident, insurance claim, ticket, warning, speed camera infraction, parking ticket*, or any interaction with law enforcement. Is that enough to objectively say anything? No idea. But my assessment of myself is as a safe driver with strong self-preservation instincts, and I’m far more comfortable with FSD than I could have imagined myself being prior to getting this car. (* well, I got a warning from a college library parking lot once, but that was a calculated cost vs. buying a permit. I won that gamble.)

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

whaaaaat 2y ago

> It’s beyond confusing to be constantly told it doesn’t I don't think I've seen any assertions here (or elsewhere) that FSD doesn't work in rogerrogerr's car. I've seen LOTS of assertions (and plenty of video evidence) that it doesn't work in other cars, and that it behaves unpredictably. This is why data over many samples is important. Maybe you've got an environment where it happens to work really well. Maybe it's probabilistic and you are the person who keeps rolling well on your random dice rolls. There's plenty of evidence the system is not generally safe, even if your personal anecdotes are that it is.

add-sub-mul-div 2y ago

"I've driven drunk many times, and I've never been in an accident. It’s beyond confusing to be constantly told it's an unsafe way to drive. The only explanation I can come up with is that there is either a well-motivated group that _wants_ drunk driving to be unsafe."

enslavedrobot 2y ago
A human + FSD on is statistically safer than driving with it on. People without FSD are the drunk drivers here.
- enslavedrobot 2y ago
  *without it on.

foobazgt 2y ago

I recently got 12.5.4, but haven't put it through the paces yet. My personal experience has been that I don't see very many (any?), critical interventions now. It seems to be handling the more complicated situations like unprotected left turns, roundabouts, etc smoothly. However, it still doesn't serve a valuable purpose for me yet. I can't take my eyes off the road or my hands off the wheel. Instead, it's the opposite - I must still be hyper vigilante. In fact, it's even worse than that. Because it doesn't drive how I would, I find myself constantly intervening. E.G. I take over when I know there's a good spot to merge for an upcoming turn, but it's delaying the merge. You can force fsd to merge by signaling, but the navigable gaps between vehicles in heavy traffic can disappear faster than fsd will perform the merge. Then the maneuver shifts from reasonable to rude. If I were just a passenger in the vehicle, I would probably care much less. But right now I'm the operator. I don't know that anyone will ever train vehicles to behave how you would prefer to drive. I think the gold standard will rather be to behave as you find acceptable as a passenger. For now, I'm appreciating the much improved summons. Having your vehicle pick you up in the rain is super nice.

rogerrogerr 2y ago
Breaking my no-replying rule because you seem reasonable and have real experience with the topic. Just wanted to reply to this: > However, it still doesn't serve a valuable purpose for me yet. I can't take my eyes off the road or my hands off the wheel. Agree - it doesn’t allow me to open a laptop and get something else useful done. In that sense, it’s not returning any time to me. But to me, it feels much the same as cruise control: it removes a set of monotonous tasks that take up some part of my brain. When I’m not needing to keep a car between lane lines and react immediately to the car ahead slowing down, I’m getting free cycles to look other places. I’m finding I spend a lot more time looking in the mirrors, looking much further ahead down the road, etc. I’m quite sure that me + FSD is safer than just me driving, simply because I’m looking much further ahead and behind. It turns driving into less of a tactical activity and more strategic. It feels almost like being a passenger for a new driver. You can be pretty sure they aren’t going to just dive out of the lane and kill you, so you can look far ahead for anything weird that might trip them up.
- 2y ago

vladgur 2y ago

Out of curiosity - what do you do when your car just drives for you but you can’t be doing other things — how do you not doze off?

rogerrogerr 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41678044 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41678044 I look far ahead, look in the mirrors, look for anything that might trip it up. Basically all the things the state’s driver’s handbook says you’re supposed to be doing, but 80% of the time instead of 20% because the basic “follow lane lines, don’t hit the car ahead” task is delegated to the car. It feels much like cruise control on a freeway; the brain cycles you’d spend monitoring and controlling speed are allocated elsewhere. I’ve developed the same hook in my brain for “why am I lanekeeping manually” as I used to have for “why am I controlling speed manually”. It’s a useful task offload.

mentalfist 2y ago

The 2020 Model 3 had radar. Leon wanted to cut costs and phased it out in 2021.

rogerrogerr 2y ago
FSD doesn’t use radar in any cars; it’s not an input. Service will even disconnect it when they have the chance. So no, this is not a case of 2020 cars having an advantage somehow. If anything, I have a less capable computer & sensor suite than the HW4 2024’s.

nunez 2y ago

Can confirm; 3000+ miles on FSD 12 in our 2024 Model 3 with minimal interventions. It's come a long long LONG way since FSD 10.

maxerickson 2y ago

It could be that your assessment of the safety of the system is bad. I'm not arguing whether it is or isn't, I'm pointing out the possibility. There are lots of terrible drivers everywhere, so it can be a real one.

rogerrogerr 2y ago
Maybe; obviously it’s unfalsifiable on the internet. The only objective signal I can provide is that I’ve driven hundreds of thousands of miles without a single incident, accident, insurance claim, ticket, warning, speed camera infraction, parking ticket*, or any interaction with law enforcement. Is that enough to objectively say anything? No idea. But my assessment of myself is as a safe driver with strong self-preservation instincts, and I’m far more comfortable with FSD than I could have imagined myself being prior to getting this car. (* well, I got a warning from a college library parking lot once, but that was a calculated cost vs. buying a permit. I won that gamble.)