4 ms·

> So in addition to the complete destruction of personal privacy and the normalization of the panopticon, it's also making you materially poorer. But hey, at le

by czl 2y ago

> So in addition to the complete destruction of personal privacy and the normalization of the panopticon, it's also making you materially poorer. But hey, at least ads are more relevant, sorta, almost, sometimes! Can a capitalist society operate without advertising? How are people to learn about products and services that are available? Yet today poorly targets ads waste the time of everyone involved. If ads could be made relevant without invading your privacy would you be against that?

emptybits 2y ago
> How are people to learn about products and services that are available? Search. Easier said than done, thanks to SEO and business models like Google. So maybe I should say "paid search". We get what we pay for.
- czl 2y ago
  If you do not know a problem is a problem why search for a solution? If you do not know a product / service exists why would you search for it? If "search" is your answer what do you suppose advertisers are doing? Are they not searching for customers? Advertising is an expensive search with many externalities on society. These externalities are wasteful hence the search for a better way to do it. Google / Facebook / ... I think are funded by solving this problem.
  - ok_dad 2y ago
    I’ve been advertised something that actually removes a problem I know about in my life, just for made up “problems”. If I don’t know a product or service exists, why do I need it? My life is fine as it is, I don’t need stupid advertisements for stuff that won’t enrich it.
    - czl 2y ago
      > If I don’t know a product or service exists, why do I need it? Do you not purchase things / services you do not need? > My life is fine as it is, I don’t need stupid advertisements for stuff that won’t enrich it. How might you reply to a someone from a few thousand or few hundred or even few dozen years ago that has your attitude? Might you be tempted to advertise to them what they are missing? Would they not be interested?
      - ok_dad 2y ago
        I do purchase things I don’t need, and I’d like to do less of that. Anyone who was happy many years ago was successful in life, happiness and satisfaction is important. Your arguments do not convince me that the toxic wasteland that is advertising is useful at all.
  - emptybits 2y ago
    > If you do not know a problem is a problem why search for a solution? Exactly, I would NOT search for a solution. No sale. Less consumption. In most cases if you do not know a problem is a problem, then it is actually NOT a problem.[1] Advertisers' jobs are to convince you otherwise. e.g. You need our pill. You need our gadget. You need our clothing or cosmetic. Advertising does not care about your best interest. Advertising tries to make a sale and advertising is considered successful if a sale is made even if no problem was solved. [1] There are some exceptions. Serious medical conditions, for example. I don't think most people object to altruistic advertising campaigns to educate people about genuine health problems and their solutions. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here.
    - czl 2y ago
      > No sale. Less consumption. What makes "Less consumption" a good goal? What are biospheres if not cycles of consumption? When our planet becomes sterilized due to some disaster will you celebrate "Less consumption"? Obviously not. EFFICIENT consumption is a good goal so we maximize what we desire and minimize the undesirables. > Advertising does not care about your best interest. Advertising tries to make a sale and advertising is considered successful if a sale is made even if no problem was solved. Yes. In a capitalist economy all act in self interest. This is clearly s bad system except if you have experience living under other systems and there the direction of migration should be a clue about what people prefer.
kibwen 2y ago
I'll list three kinds of ethnical advertising: 1. If I have an interest in a field (say, electronics) and then I attend a conference or gathering that's relevant to that field (say, CES), and then you buy a booth at that conference in order to hawk your wares, that's A-OK. The crucial difference is that I willingly understand the context--I'm going to be going to a place that's all about having people sell me things--and that advertisers are not running roughshod over a space where they don't belong. Consider this "pull-based" advertising rather than the "push-based" advertising where ads get shoved in your face every second of the day everywhere you go, even when you're just trying to live your life. 2. Organic word-of-mouth referrals. In an online, AI-infested world, the "organic" part is increasingly hard to come by, but if someone that I trusts tells me that a product is good, that's great and welcome. Crucially, their reputation with me is on the line if they turn out to be wrong or financially compromised. 3. Simple indication of presence. If you have a shop, you're allowed to have a sign on the front with the name of your shop... within reason. Don't push it. Billboards should be banned.
- czl 2y ago
  100% agree with your three points. When you "visit" Google / Facebook / YouTube / other online properties do you think you are "going to a place that's all about having people sell me things"?
bonoboTP 2y ago
Do you mean when an entirely new product category is invented and I didn't even know it's useful to me? Because that's kinda rare. In other cases such as buying a shoe or a can of beer or a fridge or a car, I just go to the website or the physical store that sells it and I compare the products and buy the most suitable one. This way purchases would be prompted by an actual need, like when my shoes are worn out, I look to buy new ones instead of it being pushed on me through ads when I don't even need it. Usually the existence of the ad doesn't mean that it's the best in its category. Why would it be in my interest to be following ads instead of my own research? Also this gotcha is decades out of date. Today's ads are rarely about the features or suitability of the actual product. Instead they sell a vibe, a lifestyle feeling, they create positive emotional associations in ways orthogonal to the product's attributes. Think Coca Cola with celebrities etc. After all, how would I otherwise know I need a can of coke if the trendy singer didn't tell me about it, right?
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  I generally find that the ads I see are for things that I definitely don't want and shouldn't purchase, and it's just them pouring bucks into the effort to get in front of my face and wear me down. Consider that you should never accept cold-call sales or offers under typical circumstances; I make notes on the ads I see in order to blacklist them, essentially. The good deals are found by my seeking them out, doing research, asking questions. Knowing a brand reputation apart from marketing. Discerning things like corporate culture, attitude, politics, intended market or audience. So many products and services are made on the basis of shoveling crap to make a profit, or supporting some cause or crusade, and the more I can pierce the veil, the better I feel about where my money's going.
amelius 2y ago
> How are people to learn about products and services that are available? Remember Yellow Pages? And if that is not good enough, perhaps you can opt in to an advertising service that shows you ads when you want to see them (as opposed to when they want to show them to you).

by czl 2y ago

emptybits 2y ago

> How are people to learn about products and services that are available? Search. Easier said than done, thanks to SEO and business models like Google. So maybe I should say "paid search". We get what we pay for.

czl 2y ago
If you do not know a problem is a problem why search for a solution? If you do not know a product / service exists why would you search for it? If "search" is your answer what do you suppose advertisers are doing? Are they not searching for customers? Advertising is an expensive search with many externalities on society. These externalities are wasteful hence the search for a better way to do it. Google / Facebook / ... I think are funded by solving this problem.
- ok_dad 2y ago
  I’ve been advertised something that actually removes a problem I know about in my life, just for made up “problems”. If I don’t know a product or service exists, why do I need it? My life is fine as it is, I don’t need stupid advertisements for stuff that won’t enrich it.
  - czl 2y ago
    > If I don’t know a product or service exists, why do I need it? Do you not purchase things / services you do not need? > My life is fine as it is, I don’t need stupid advertisements for stuff that won’t enrich it. How might you reply to a someone from a few thousand or few hundred or even few dozen years ago that has your attitude? Might you be tempted to advertise to them what they are missing? Would they not be interested?
    - ok_dad 2y ago
      I do purchase things I don’t need, and I’d like to do less of that. Anyone who was happy many years ago was successful in life, happiness and satisfaction is important. Your arguments do not convince me that the toxic wasteland that is advertising is useful at all.
- emptybits 2y ago
  > If you do not know a problem is a problem why search for a solution? Exactly, I would NOT search for a solution. No sale. Less consumption. In most cases if you do not know a problem is a problem, then it is actually NOT a problem.[1] Advertisers' jobs are to convince you otherwise. e.g. You need our pill. You need our gadget. You need our clothing or cosmetic. Advertising does not care about your best interest. Advertising tries to make a sale and advertising is considered successful if a sale is made even if no problem was solved. [1] There are some exceptions. Serious medical conditions, for example. I don't think most people object to altruistic advertising campaigns to educate people about genuine health problems and their solutions. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here.
  - czl 2y ago
    > No sale. Less consumption. What makes "Less consumption" a good goal? What are biospheres if not cycles of consumption? When our planet becomes sterilized due to some disaster will you celebrate "Less consumption"? Obviously not. EFFICIENT consumption is a good goal so we maximize what we desire and minimize the undesirables. > Advertising does not care about your best interest. Advertising tries to make a sale and advertising is considered successful if a sale is made even if no problem was solved. Yes. In a capitalist economy all act in self interest. This is clearly s bad system except if you have experience living under other systems and there the direction of migration should be a clue about what people prefer.

kibwen 2y ago

I'll list three kinds of ethnical advertising: 1. If I have an interest in a field (say, electronics) and then I attend a conference or gathering that's relevant to that field (say, CES), and then you buy a booth at that conference in order to hawk your wares, that's A-OK. The crucial difference is that I willingly understand the context--I'm going to be going to a place that's all about having people sell me things--and that advertisers are not running roughshod over a space where they don't belong. Consider this "pull-based" advertising rather than the "push-based" advertising where ads get shoved in your face every second of the day everywhere you go, even when you're just trying to live your life. 2. Organic word-of-mouth referrals. In an online, AI-infested world, the "organic" part is increasingly hard to come by, but if someone that I trusts tells me that a product is good, that's great and welcome. Crucially, their reputation with me is on the line if they turn out to be wrong or financially compromised. 3. Simple indication of presence. If you have a shop, you're allowed to have a sign on the front with the name of your shop... within reason. Don't push it. Billboards should be banned.

czl 2y ago
100% agree with your three points. When you "visit" Google / Facebook / YouTube / other online properties do you think you are "going to a place that's all about having people sell me things"?

bonoboTP 2y ago

Do you mean when an entirely new product category is invented and I didn't even know it's useful to me? Because that's kinda rare. In other cases such as buying a shoe or a can of beer or a fridge or a car, I just go to the website or the physical store that sells it and I compare the products and buy the most suitable one. This way purchases would be prompted by an actual need, like when my shoes are worn out, I look to buy new ones instead of it being pushed on me through ads when I don't even need it. Usually the existence of the ad doesn't mean that it's the best in its category. Why would it be in my interest to be following ads instead of my own research? Also this gotcha is decades out of date. Today's ads are rarely about the features or suitability of the actual product. Instead they sell a vibe, a lifestyle feeling, they create positive emotional associations in ways orthogonal to the product's attributes. Think Coca Cola with celebrities etc. After all, how would I otherwise know I need a can of coke if the trendy singer didn't tell me about it, right?

AStonesThrow 2y ago
I generally find that the ads I see are for things that I definitely don't want and shouldn't purchase, and it's just them pouring bucks into the effort to get in front of my face and wear me down. Consider that you should never accept cold-call sales or offers under typical circumstances; I make notes on the ads I see in order to blacklist them, essentially. The good deals are found by my seeking them out, doing research, asking questions. Knowing a brand reputation apart from marketing. Discerning things like corporate culture, attitude, politics, intended market or audience. So many products and services are made on the basis of shoveling crap to make a profit, or supporting some cause or crusade, and the more I can pierce the veil, the better I feel about where my money's going.

amelius 2y ago

> How are people to learn about products and services that are available? Remember Yellow Pages? And if that is not good enough, perhaps you can opt in to an advertising service that shows you ads when you want to see them (as opposed to when they want to show them to you).