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Third Party Testing Paints Dark Picture of Tesla FSD

28 points by toss1 2y ago

peutetre 2y ago
> It's worth noting that Tesla claims FSD is still in "beta," so it's incomplete When a broken tail light is considered a safety issue, how is a half-baked "full self-driving" system that's in perpetual beta and has never delivered on Tesla's self imposed deadlines for true self-driving allowed on the road at all?
- valine 2y ago
  That’s a strange perspective. AEB isn’t 100% reliable but we still allow it on the roads because it’s a net increase in safety. When used correctly FSD seems to be a net increase in safety as well. You can make the case they should do a better job with the labeling, maybe stop calling it FSD to start.
  - rogerrogerr 2y ago
    Current labeling is FSD (Supervised), which in my experience is accurate. There’s so many prompts and enforcement of paying attention that zero people are being fooled into thinking they can take a nap and arrive at their destination. If they tried, it’d yell at them before they counted a half dozen sheep.
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  because there's no law against it
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
porphyra 2y ago
The Red light at night "failure" [1] is a bit suspect: The car was already in the intersection but was blocked by the stopped car in front of it. When the car in front of it started moving, it moved too, which is the legal and correct thing to do as it was already in the intersection. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9FDT_-dLRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9FDT_-dLRk
- whaaaaat 2y ago
  The car should not have entered the intersection if it could not exit the intersection, and it pretty clearly shows it waiting to enter the intersection. Note the dashed red line showing it was correctly waiting to enter, and only choosing to enter after the lights were red. It was not already in the intersection.
- valine 2y ago
  Edit: replied to wrong comment
  - porphyra 2y ago
    Did you reply to the wrong comment
    - valine 2y ago
      I did, was about to delete it but then you commented haha.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
stieg 2y ago
while far from perfect, after watching all three videos, nothing stood out as egregious. Yep... definitely not perfect and still room for improvement. But this headline feels pretty sensational when backed up with the 3 videos (poorly) linked.
rogerrogerr 2y ago
My car drives me all over town without intervention (on 12.3.6, and now on 12.5.4). It’s beyond confusing to be constantly told it doesn’t, when I have never taken over for a safety issue. Only for cases where it’s being too hesitant. 2020 Model 3. I bought a used Tesla and had very low expectations for FSD’s usefulness, and those were shattered. All my complaints are stylistic - accelerates a bit too quick, hesitates a bit longer in some cases. Steering wheel is a bit jumpy on turns at low speeds, but not unsafe. The only explanation I can come up with is that there is either a well-motivated group that wants FSD to be bad, or there is some huge variation between vehicles and I lucked out on my car’s cameras being aligned right or something. Maybe the roads in my area are easier than normal, but I’m in a large non-California metro area, so I don’t think I’m unrepresentative. > AMCI found that, on average, when operating FSD, human intervention is required at least once every 13 miles to maintain safe operation. I drove a 200 mile road trip last week, combination of city, suburb, interstate, rural. Didn’t take over except to pull in/out of driveways. So this statement is just mind boggling - implies that my drive last week was, like, a 3 or 4 sigma event. But I’ve done it more than once. At some point, it stops being anecdotes and starts being “I simple cannot square your number with my experience” Last time I said something positive about FSD here, someone suggested I’m simply forgetting the many times it must try to kill me. Debates around this get wild. I will not reply to anything negative below, because I’ve learned it’s much more fun to have my car drive me around town than argue with people who insist it can’t.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- whaaaaat 2y ago
  > It’s beyond confusing to be constantly told it doesn’t I don't think I've seen any assertions here (or elsewhere) that FSD doesn't work in rogerrogerr's car. I've seen LOTS of assertions (and plenty of video evidence) that it doesn't work in other cars, and that it behaves unpredictably. This is why data over many samples is important. Maybe you've got an environment where it happens to work really well. Maybe it's probabilistic and you are the person who keeps rolling well on your random dice rolls. There's plenty of evidence the system is not generally safe, even if your personal anecdotes are that it is.
Animats 2y ago
The article mentions that Tesla now claims they will show a prototype of a self-driving taxi on October 10. After four years of postponements.[1] After fakes going back to 2016.[2] At a movie studio, not on the road. We will see. [1] https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-robotaxis-will-ready-2020-elon-musk-says/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-robotaxis-will-ready-2... [2] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-autopilot-staged-engineer-says-company-faked-full-autopilot/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-autopilot-staged-engineer...
jqpabc123 2y ago
Tesla's "Full Self Driving" is most definitely NOT full self driving --- according to Tesla. As further proof of this point, reports are that Tesla has been training a car to drive around a selected movie studio lot for their upcoming robotaxi demo. And all indications are that this staged production will work as planned to keep investors engaged in the fantasy that has been ongoing for over a decade. For a realistic robotaxi demo, let's put Elon in the backseat and ask the car to drive him to a randomly chosen destination 10 miles away and see how it goes. But this won't happen. Because FSD is NOT fsd --- and it is blatantly obvious that Elon knows this as well as anyone.
h2odragon 2y ago
Its amazing how one person changing political opinion destroyed the widespread faith in "self driving" that existed just a few years ago. 5 years ago, saying "I doubt self driving trucks will destroy the careers of truck driving humans" was enough to get one burned as a luddite. Now, not only can it be admitted that the systems that exist require human help; doubts about them are required in civilized conversation of the subject. Its almost as if the facts of the matter are unrelated to the conversation, and the important point is enforcing tribal signals.
daly 2y ago
Just got my Tesla Y last week. Drove it on FSD. I have a fairly deep expertise in the area. Masters level work in machine vision, many years of robotics at Unimation, IBM, and CMU. Current hacking on LLMs. I have programmed for 53 years. FSD is "indistinguishable from magic". This thing drove from my house to the destination and back without a single event. It has never seen either path. It handled stop signs, traffic lights, country roads, a flock of birds in the road, highway entrance/exit, directional traffic lights, traffic merging, speed adjustments, lane changes, rain, etc. I am beyond impressed. As for the "safety issue", my Y has airbags on the steering wheel, knee, and "curtain airbags" on the windows and seats. The Y has the highest safety rating available. It won't roll over easily. The passenger compartment is well isolated from front/rear collisions. Plus it apparently has emergency braking if a collision is likely. In all possible circumstances even humans get confused. Two weeks ago I had a turkey fly across the hood of my car. I didn't know turkeys could fly. I thought it was a boulder at first. So FSD can't be perfect. But it is damn good.

28 points by toss1 2y ago

> It's worth noting that Tesla claims FSD is still in "beta," so it's incomplete When a broken tail light is considered a safety issue, how is a half-baked "full self-driving" system that's in perpetual beta and has never delivered on Tesla's self imposed deadlines for true self-driving allowed on the road at all?

valine 2y ago
That’s a strange perspective. AEB isn’t 100% reliable but we still allow it on the roads because it’s a net increase in safety. When used correctly FSD seems to be a net increase in safety as well. You can make the case they should do a better job with the labeling, maybe stop calling it FSD to start.
- rogerrogerr 2y ago
  Current labeling is FSD (Supervised), which in my experience is accurate. There’s so many prompts and enforcement of paying attention that zero people are being fooled into thinking they can take a nap and arrive at their destination. If they tried, it’d yell at them before they counted a half dozen sheep.
ranger_danger 2y ago
because there's no law against it

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

porphyra 2y ago

The Red light at night "failure" [1] is a bit suspect: The car was already in the intersection but was blocked by the stopped car in front of it. When the car in front of it started moving, it moved too, which is the legal and correct thing to do as it was already in the intersection. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9FDT_-dLRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9FDT_-dLRk

whaaaaat 2y ago
The car should not have entered the intersection if it could not exit the intersection, and it pretty clearly shows it waiting to enter the intersection. Note the dashed red line showing it was correctly waiting to enter, and only choosing to enter after the lights were red. It was not already in the intersection.
valine 2y ago
Edit: replied to wrong comment
- porphyra 2y ago
  Did you reply to the wrong comment
  - valine 2y ago
    I did, was about to delete it but then you commented haha.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

stieg 2y ago

while far from perfect, after watching all three videos, nothing stood out as egregious. Yep... definitely not perfect and still room for improvement. But this headline feels pretty sensational when backed up with the 3 videos (poorly) linked.

rogerrogerr 2y ago

My car drives me all over town without intervention (on 12.3.6, and now on 12.5.4). It’s beyond confusing to be constantly told it doesn’t, when I have never taken over for a safety issue. Only for cases where it’s being too hesitant. 2020 Model 3. I bought a used Tesla and had very low expectations for FSD’s usefulness, and those were shattered. All my complaints are stylistic - accelerates a bit too quick, hesitates a bit longer in some cases. Steering wheel is a bit jumpy on turns at low speeds, but not unsafe. The only explanation I can come up with is that there is either a well-motivated group that wants FSD to be bad, or there is some huge variation between vehicles and I lucked out on my car’s cameras being aligned right or something. Maybe the roads in my area are easier than normal, but I’m in a large non-California metro area, so I don’t think I’m unrepresentative. > AMCI found that, on average, when operating FSD, human intervention is required at least once every 13 miles to maintain safe operation. I drove a 200 mile road trip last week, combination of city, suburb, interstate, rural. Didn’t take over except to pull in/out of driveways. So this statement is just mind boggling - implies that my drive last week was, like, a 3 or 4 sigma event. But I’ve done it more than once. At some point, it stops being anecdotes and starts being “I simple cannot square your number with my experience” Last time I said something positive about FSD here, someone suggested I’m simply forgetting the many times it must try to kill me. Debates around this get wild. I will not reply to anything negative below, because I’ve learned it’s much more fun to have my car drive me around town than argue with people who insist it can’t.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
whaaaaat 2y ago
> It’s beyond confusing to be constantly told it doesn’t I don't think I've seen any assertions here (or elsewhere) that FSD doesn't work in rogerrogerr's car. I've seen LOTS of assertions (and plenty of video evidence) that it doesn't work in other cars, and that it behaves unpredictably. This is why data over many samples is important. Maybe you've got an environment where it happens to work really well. Maybe it's probabilistic and you are the person who keeps rolling well on your random dice rolls. There's plenty of evidence the system is not generally safe, even if your personal anecdotes are that it is.

Animats 2y ago

The article mentions that Tesla now claims they will show a prototype of a self-driving taxi on October 10. After four years of postponements.[1] After fakes going back to 2016.[2] At a movie studio, not on the road. We will see. [1] https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-robotaxis-will-ready-2020-elon-musk-says/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-robotaxis-will-ready-2... [2] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-autopilot-staged-engineer-says-company-faked-full-autopilot/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-autopilot-staged-engineer...

jqpabc123 2y ago

Tesla's "Full Self Driving" is most definitely NOT full self driving --- according to Tesla. As further proof of this point, reports are that Tesla has been training a car to drive around a selected movie studio lot for their upcoming robotaxi demo. And all indications are that this staged production will work as planned to keep investors engaged in the fantasy that has been ongoing for over a decade. For a realistic robotaxi demo, let's put Elon in the backseat and ask the car to drive him to a randomly chosen destination 10 miles away and see how it goes. But this won't happen. Because FSD is NOT fsd --- and it is blatantly obvious that Elon knows this as well as anyone.

h2odragon 2y ago

Its amazing how one person changing political opinion destroyed the widespread faith in "self driving" that existed just a few years ago. 5 years ago, saying "I doubt self driving trucks will destroy the careers of truck driving humans" was enough to get one burned as a luddite. Now, not only can it be admitted that the systems that exist require human help; doubts about them are required in civilized conversation of the subject. Its almost as if the facts of the matter are unrelated to the conversation, and the important point is enforcing tribal signals.

daly 2y ago

Just got my Tesla Y last week. Drove it on FSD. I have a fairly deep expertise in the area. Masters level work in machine vision, many years of robotics at Unimation, IBM, and CMU. Current hacking on LLMs. I have programmed for 53 years. FSD is "indistinguishable from magic". This thing drove from my house to the destination and back without a single event. It has never seen either path. It handled stop signs, traffic lights, country roads, a flock of birds in the road, highway entrance/exit, directional traffic lights, traffic merging, speed adjustments, lane changes, rain, etc. I am beyond impressed. As for the "safety issue", my Y has airbags on the steering wheel, knee, and "curtain airbags" on the windows and seats. The Y has the highest safety rating available. It won't roll over easily. The passenger compartment is well isolated from front/rear collisions. Plus it apparently has emergency braking if a collision is likely. In all possible circumstances even humans get confused. Two weeks ago I had a turkey fly across the hood of my car. I didn't know turkeys could fly. I thought it was a boulder at first. So FSD can't be perfect. But it is damn good.