4 ms·

This isn't some "freedom" issue, it's an incredibly huge power asymmetry and I think "we the people" need protection from these forces No thank you, I can prot

This isn't some "freedom" issue, it's an incredibly huge power asymmetry and I think "we the people" need protection from these forces No thank you, I can protect myself.

stackghost 2y ago
>No thank you, I can protect myself. In many ways you actually cannot, in any reasonable way: - You cannot escape surveillance unless you completely (and I do mean completely) withdraw from modern society - You cannot protect yourself from subconscious manipulation by advertising and marketing firms that pay billions of dollars to find and exploit subconscious weaknesses that we all possess - You cannot protect yourself from sweeping changes made (e.g. to legislation) made in response to the interests of lobbyists or bad actors, and in consequence from changes in the behaviour of others, in response
- ghastmaster 2y ago
  > You cannot protect yourself from subconscious manipulation by advertising and marketing firms that pay billions of dollars to find and exploit subconscious weaknesses that we all possess By learning the techniques they employ, a subconscious manipulation by them, becomes a conscious observation by us. Education defeats these methods. An argument could be made that more money will be spent to continually find deeper subconscious manipulations. I would wager, the ROI would diminish quickly. I would rather be manipulated by private industry than controlled by government. I cannot out vote a majority, but I can out wit a billboard.
  - stackghost 2y ago
    >Education defeats these methods. It does not. For example young women and girls, even when knowing that an image of a fashion model is photoshopped, still exhibit drops in their self body image. >I would rather be manipulated by private industry than controlled by government. In many cases these two things are the same, due to the prevalence and efficacy of lobbying >I can out wit a billboard. Lots of people believe this, but it is false.
    - debo_ 2y ago
      I wanted to observe how great it is to see "ghastmaster" arguing with "stackghost."
      - card_zero 2y ago
        I liked that in the article, somebody with the name "Poet" grew up to be an economist.
    - ghastmaster 2y ago
      > It does not. For example young women and girls, even when knowing that an image of a fashion model is photoshopped, still exhibit drops in their self body image. In the natural world traits that are wasted on futile efforts are eventually not selected. In the human world, traits that are ripe for manipulation in a free market would result in lower purchasing power. Thus, less ability to afford children and pass on the traits. Subsidizing via regulations or direct support prolongs the subterfuge we are discussing here. Perhaps, in perpetuity. > In many cases these two things are the same, due to the prevalence and efficacy of lobbying The reason there are lobbyist is because we have granted those being lobbied control. Take away the control and the lobbying is pointless. More rules and regulations = more lobbying.
      - biorach 2y ago
        > In the human world, traits that a ripe for manipulation in a free market would result in lower purchasing power. Thus, less ability to afford children and pass on the traits This is mostly nonsense
        ghastmaster 2y ago
        Air is mostly nitrogen. How is it mostly nonsense?
        Miraste 2y ago
        There are a lot of mistakes here, but for one, lower economic means correlates with more children.
  - thecrash 2y ago
    > I would rather be manipulated by private industry than controlled by government. I cannot out vote a majority, but I can out wit a billboard. Another way of saying this is that you would rather be controlled through methods which are subtle, novel, and difficult to put a finger on than through methods which are overt and fit traditional narratives of control.
    - card_zero 2y ago
      Cops. On the whole, yes.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    This is why doctors and other healthcare professionals never become addicted to drugs. Right? They know better?
bcook 2y ago
> No thank you, I can protect myself. There's surely some ways you're unprepared to protect yourself. Since you're unaware, you wouldn't be able to thank them. Ignorance is bliss.
cma256 2y ago
Let's let 8 year olds drive drunk. I'm more than capable of spotting them on the road and avoiding them.
- clarkmoody 2y ago
  Are you responding to an 8 year old?
  - brendoelfrendo 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - cma256 2y ago
    Will my 8 year old be exposed to sports gambling commercials?
    - joelfried 2y ago
      If they like sports at all you absolutely know they will.
ziddoap 2y ago
Even if you can protect yourself from everything (which I would argue you cannot), not everyone is as smart and infallible as you.
DrillShopper 2y ago
You are not immune to propaganda
dcow 2y ago
You can’t protect yourself from psychological manipulation that’s unavoidable unless you glue your eyes shut. Let ads and content feeds exist, but make it illegal for them to be casually viewed by anybody who hasn’t given explicit consent to be exposed to deceit and manipulation. I’m dead serious. It’s a sham that you can cannot drive on public roads without viewing billboards, or get to municipal service announcements without traversing twitter or FB.
- toss1 2y ago
  There are some states that outlaw highway billboards, recognizing the blight they are on the landscape. It is IMMEDIATELY better to drive in those states. Vermont is a great example, which banned billboards, and is adjacent to New Hampshire, a similarly sized and situated adjacent state. Driving into NH after being in VT for a while, it is immediately jarring just how offensive and ugly even a few billboards make the place. It is a damn reasonable regulation, and more states should have it. No one is going hungry because they can't put up a billboard (especially the damn bright flashing digital billboards).
- wnc3141 2y ago
  If it didn't work, no one would make a cent in advertising
vitalredundancy 2y ago
You are not protecting yourself. You are existing within a lifeway and culture where legible and illegible/intangible/unspoken agreements create a context that allows you to believe you are able to protect yourself. Meanwhile, a swirl of beliefs and ideology insulate you from unpredictability, choice, and chaos.
snapcaster 2y ago
Do you have any concern for the people not as strong as you? do they deserve any protection or is okay if they're just preyed on by the strong?
throw0101d 2y ago
> No thank you, I can protect myself. Said every smoker of tobacco. :)
- adventured 2y ago
  Black market approaches to attempting to limit / control human behavior are insane and do not work. That goes for gambling, smoking, prostitution, drinking, drugs, et al. Education, therapy and taxation are about the only things that have been shown to work reasonably (eg not spurring massive crime outcomes) to introduce effective limiting forces or properly respond to the consequences of excess. Outlawing gambling is just as insane as outlawing alcohol, smoking, drug use.
  - throw0101d 2y ago
    > Black market approaches to attempting to limit / control human behavior are insane and do not work. The idea that governments may not be able to (completely?) protect people does not invalidate the the idea that people cannot protect themselves.
pmarreck 2y ago
Are you a libertarian? What's the libertarian take on this sort of thing, where people have proven time and again that they cannot handle the responsibility without resulting in clearly more demonstrable harm when the guardrails are off? A more modern example might be people's failure to plan for their financial future or to value critical thinking enough not to be persuaded by charismatic bad-actor shysters to do bad things

This isn't some "freedom" issue, it's an incredibly huge power asymmetry and I think "we the people" need protection from these forces No thank you, I can protect myself.

stackghost 2y ago

>No thank you, I can protect myself. In many ways you actually cannot, in any reasonable way: - You cannot escape surveillance unless you completely (and I do mean completely) withdraw from modern society - You cannot protect yourself from subconscious manipulation by advertising and marketing firms that pay billions of dollars to find and exploit subconscious weaknesses that we all possess - You cannot protect yourself from sweeping changes made (e.g. to legislation) made in response to the interests of lobbyists or bad actors, and in consequence from changes in the behaviour of others, in response

ghastmaster 2y ago
> You cannot protect yourself from subconscious manipulation by advertising and marketing firms that pay billions of dollars to find and exploit subconscious weaknesses that we all possess By learning the techniques they employ, a subconscious manipulation by them, becomes a conscious observation by us. Education defeats these methods. An argument could be made that more money will be spent to continually find deeper subconscious manipulations. I would wager, the ROI would diminish quickly. I would rather be manipulated by private industry than controlled by government. I cannot out vote a majority, but I can out wit a billboard.
- stackghost 2y ago
  >Education defeats these methods. It does not. For example young women and girls, even when knowing that an image of a fashion model is photoshopped, still exhibit drops in their self body image. >I would rather be manipulated by private industry than controlled by government. In many cases these two things are the same, due to the prevalence and efficacy of lobbying >I can out wit a billboard. Lots of people believe this, but it is false.
  - debo_ 2y ago
    I wanted to observe how great it is to see "ghastmaster" arguing with "stackghost."
    - card_zero 2y ago
      I liked that in the article, somebody with the name "Poet" grew up to be an economist.
  - ghastmaster 2y ago
    > It does not. For example young women and girls, even when knowing that an image of a fashion model is photoshopped, still exhibit drops in their self body image. In the natural world traits that are wasted on futile efforts are eventually not selected. In the human world, traits that are ripe for manipulation in a free market would result in lower purchasing power. Thus, less ability to afford children and pass on the traits. Subsidizing via regulations or direct support prolongs the subterfuge we are discussing here. Perhaps, in perpetuity. > In many cases these two things are the same, due to the prevalence and efficacy of lobbying The reason there are lobbyist is because we have granted those being lobbied control. Take away the control and the lobbying is pointless. More rules and regulations = more lobbying.
    - biorach 2y ago
      > In the human world, traits that a ripe for manipulation in a free market would result in lower purchasing power. Thus, less ability to afford children and pass on the traits This is mostly nonsense
      - ghastmaster 2y ago
        Air is mostly nitrogen. How is it mostly nonsense?
        Miraste 2y ago
        There are a lot of mistakes here, but for one, lower economic means correlates with more children.
- thecrash 2y ago
  > I would rather be manipulated by private industry than controlled by government. I cannot out vote a majority, but I can out wit a billboard. Another way of saying this is that you would rather be controlled through methods which are subtle, novel, and difficult to put a finger on than through methods which are overt and fit traditional narratives of control.
  - card_zero 2y ago
    Cops. On the whole, yes.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  This is why doctors and other healthcare professionals never become addicted to drugs. Right? They know better?

bcook 2y ago

> No thank you, I can protect myself. There's surely some ways you're unprepared to protect yourself. Since you're unaware, you wouldn't be able to thank them. Ignorance is bliss.

cma256 2y ago

Let's let 8 year olds drive drunk. I'm more than capable of spotting them on the road and avoiding them.

clarkmoody 2y ago
Are you responding to an 8 year old?
- brendoelfrendo 2y ago
  [flagged]
- cma256 2y ago
  Will my 8 year old be exposed to sports gambling commercials?
  - joelfried 2y ago
    If they like sports at all you absolutely know they will.

ziddoap 2y ago

Even if you can protect yourself from everything (which I would argue you cannot), not everyone is as smart and infallible as you.

DrillShopper 2y ago

You are not immune to propaganda

dcow 2y ago

You can’t protect yourself from psychological manipulation that’s unavoidable unless you glue your eyes shut. Let ads and content feeds exist, but make it illegal for them to be casually viewed by anybody who hasn’t given explicit consent to be exposed to deceit and manipulation. I’m dead serious. It’s a sham that you can cannot drive on public roads without viewing billboards, or get to municipal service announcements without traversing twitter or FB.

toss1 2y ago
There are some states that outlaw highway billboards, recognizing the blight they are on the landscape. It is IMMEDIATELY better to drive in those states. Vermont is a great example, which banned billboards, and is adjacent to New Hampshire, a similarly sized and situated adjacent state. Driving into NH after being in VT for a while, it is immediately jarring just how offensive and ugly even a few billboards make the place. It is a damn reasonable regulation, and more states should have it. No one is going hungry because they can't put up a billboard (especially the damn bright flashing digital billboards).
wnc3141 2y ago
If it didn't work, no one would make a cent in advertising

vitalredundancy 2y ago

You are not protecting yourself. You are existing within a lifeway and culture where legible and illegible/intangible/unspoken agreements create a context that allows you to believe you are able to protect yourself. Meanwhile, a swirl of beliefs and ideology insulate you from unpredictability, choice, and chaos.

snapcaster 2y ago

Do you have any concern for the people not as strong as you? do they deserve any protection or is okay if they're just preyed on by the strong?

throw0101d 2y ago

> No thank you, I can protect myself. Said every smoker of tobacco. :)

adventured 2y ago
Black market approaches to attempting to limit / control human behavior are insane and do not work. That goes for gambling, smoking, prostitution, drinking, drugs, et al. Education, therapy and taxation are about the only things that have been shown to work reasonably (eg not spurring massive crime outcomes) to introduce effective limiting forces or properly respond to the consequences of excess. Outlawing gambling is just as insane as outlawing alcohol, smoking, drug use.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  > Black market approaches to attempting to limit / control human behavior are insane and do not work. The idea that governments may not be able to (completely?) protect people does not invalidate the the idea that people cannot protect themselves.

pmarreck 2y ago

Are you a libertarian? What's the libertarian take on this sort of thing, where people have proven time and again that they cannot handle the responsibility without resulting in clearly more demonstrable harm when the guardrails are off? A more modern example might be people's failure to plan for their financial future or to value critical thinking enough not to be persuaded by charismatic bad-actor shysters to do bad things