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Interestingly enough, standardized testing was unknown to Europe until they made contact with China. One company that was inspired by this was the British East

Interestingly enough, standardized testing was unknown to Europe until they made contact with China. One company that was inspired by this was the British East India company which introduced an exam for employees. This contributed to the company becoming the largest most powerful corporation in the world! Down to running private militaries and overthrowing kingdoms. At one point the company's private armies were 3x larger than the British military. As for China itself, it kept doing these exams, but the content never changed. Straight into the 20th century the scholar exam involved memorizing Confucian classics. There was even a military exam that wasn't killed until the first decade of the 20th century. It involved being able to hit multiple targets with a bow and arrow whilst riding a horse, and being able to draw a 300 lb bow without straining your shoulders.

LarsDu88 2y ago
So for all ya'll software companies... one day it might be prudent to update these leetcode problems... With quizzes about tensors, Einstein summation, and recent scientific papers
neaden 2y ago
I think there must be a conversion issue there. An English Longbow topped out at like, 110 lb draw weight I don't think you could make a 300 lb bow, and if you did I don't think anyone could draw it without straining their shoulders.
- LarsDu88 2y ago
  Here are the historical draw weights for Qing dynasty bows: https://www.manchuarchery.org/historical-draw-weights-qing-bows https://www.manchuarchery.org/historical-draw-weights-qing-b.... 80 lbs was considered minimum for military usage and 150 lbs was not unheard of Imperial examination bows were giant versions of these military bows that were intended to assess the strength of the examinee. I couldn't find reliable numbers on the draw weights for these, but needless to say they had to have significantly higher draw weights than standard military bows. Even the Qing Emperor was expected to be able to draw a 120 lb+ bow or at least had such bows in his personal collection. The Manchurians came from a culture that valued hunting and horseback archery even more than the Han Chinese.
  - neaden 2y ago
    120 lb draw weight I could see, even 150 for a test or a little more. That still leaves us 100 lb short of whats being said here so I still think the 300 lb figure is either an exaggeration or a translation/conversion issue. I did some googling and indeed I cannot find any example of a 300 lb bow being made ever, let alone before modern materials science and I am skeptical that anyone short of an Olympic athlete would be able to draw it.
    - LarsDu88 2y ago
      From the same source above professor Mark Elliot writes: "In regularly held contests, expertness might be demonstrated by accuracy of aim, length of shot, or strength in drawing. It was the last of these that occasioned the most detailed comments by supervising officers. Bows were graded by "strength" from three [40 pounds] to as high as eighteen [240 pounds], according to their stiffness. Ability at strength of six (probably a pull of about 80 pounds) was considered minimal for a grown man, and strength of ten (about 133 pounds) was required for participation in hunts. A 1736 report found that of 3,200 troops at the Hangzhou garrison about 2,200 were able to draw bows of strengths six to ten [80-133], and 80 could handle bow strengths of eleven to thirteen [147-173 pounds]… …In comparison, the 500 troops at the small Dezhou garrison acquitted themselves with honor, all of them being able to take a five-strength bow [67 pounds], 203 a six-strength [80 pounds], 137 a seven strength [93 pounds], and 85 a ten-strength bow [133 pounds]. And: "The champion in a 1728 contest between the one hundred top bowmen in the empire won one hundred taels when he hit the bull's-eye using an eighteen-strength bow an estimated drawing weight of almost 240 pounds!" So in 1728, the draw weight topped out at 240 lbs which only one guy in the entire empire could draw. I've attempted to pull an 80 lb longbow once with no training, and I'm pretty sure I risked tearing a shoulder. It takes a lifetime of training to get into military bow pull strength
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        It also seems that the 80-110 numbers for the English longbow may be a low estimates. Bows and skeletons were recovered from Henry VIII's flagship, which sank in 1545. Mary Rose longbows had draw weights estimated between 110 to 180 lb. Similarly, it has been estimated that to penetrate an armour from the first half of the sixteenth century, a draw weight of about 110 to 130 lb was needed. This makes anecdotal sense to me. 70-80 lbs is a common draw weighed for modern compound hunting bows routinely used by people with comparatively little training. I shoot about 75 lbs with no more training than going to a range once a month and am a 6ft male with no weight training. Given the historical accounts of the required training and dedication required for the English longbow, I expect 110 could be on the lower end. Guinness world records has contemporary archers shooting longbows up to 200lbs, although without precision.
qwytw 2y ago
> One company that was inspired by this was the British East India company which introduced an exam for employees I would assume they were based on the exams in the English navy introduced in 1677 (which I think was almost 200 years before EIC)? They weren't fully standardized by modern standards but I'm not sure that they were influenced by the Chinese exams as much as common practices in European universities, guilds etc. It's not that obvious that standardized in the 1800s didn't just gradually develop from previous practices with limited external influence. AFAIK was the first country in Europe, they had standardized for judges in the 1740s (so 100 years before the EIC) and the "Abitur" exam for school graduates was introduced in 1788. I doubt had any links with the Chinese exams. Pretty much all Western Educational systems were significantly influenced by Prussia.
- LarsDu88 2y ago
  Also the East India Company was founded in 1600, predating those English Navy exams by 1677. I'm not sure when they started adding standardized exams. Edit: It's possible these EIC exams were only introduced in the 19th century after the company was taken over by the British government. Could not find any sources stating that they were introduced earlier.
  - qwytw 2y ago
    They reformed the civil service system in 1853. I'm not sure it was something that the EIC came up with on its own, rather it was the British government/parliament, possibly trying to fix the arbitrariness/mismanagement/inefficiency that was so rampant in the EIC. There might be some Chinese influence coming through the Jesuits as early as the 1600s. However the early European "exams" in the 1700s seem to have been very different e.g. basically you'd join the navy, or the civil service (in Prussia) in an entry level position, learn on the job for a few years and then take some semi-formal oral exam before by a panel of senior officials. So probably much closer to the guild style system than actual standardized exams which didn't really came until the 1800s. And of course you are already hade to come from a fairly affluent/well-connected background just to get in.

LarsDu88 2y ago

So for all ya'll software companies... one day it might be prudent to update these leetcode problems... With quizzes about tensors, Einstein summation, and recent scientific papers

neaden 2y ago

I think there must be a conversion issue there. An English Longbow topped out at like, 110 lb draw weight I don't think you could make a 300 lb bow, and if you did I don't think anyone could draw it without straining their shoulders.

LarsDu88 2y ago
Here are the historical draw weights for Qing dynasty bows: https://www.manchuarchery.org/historical-draw-weights-qing-bows https://www.manchuarchery.org/historical-draw-weights-qing-b.... 80 lbs was considered minimum for military usage and 150 lbs was not unheard of Imperial examination bows were giant versions of these military bows that were intended to assess the strength of the examinee. I couldn't find reliable numbers on the draw weights for these, but needless to say they had to have significantly higher draw weights than standard military bows. Even the Qing Emperor was expected to be able to draw a 120 lb+ bow or at least had such bows in his personal collection. The Manchurians came from a culture that valued hunting and horseback archery even more than the Han Chinese.
- neaden 2y ago
  120 lb draw weight I could see, even 150 for a test or a little more. That still leaves us 100 lb short of whats being said here so I still think the 300 lb figure is either an exaggeration or a translation/conversion issue. I did some googling and indeed I cannot find any example of a 300 lb bow being made ever, let alone before modern materials science and I am skeptical that anyone short of an Olympic athlete would be able to draw it.
  - LarsDu88 2y ago
    From the same source above professor Mark Elliot writes: "In regularly held contests, expertness might be demonstrated by accuracy of aim, length of shot, or strength in drawing. It was the last of these that occasioned the most detailed comments by supervising officers. Bows were graded by "strength" from three [40 pounds] to as high as eighteen [240 pounds], according to their stiffness. Ability at strength of six (probably a pull of about 80 pounds) was considered minimal for a grown man, and strength of ten (about 133 pounds) was required for participation in hunts. A 1736 report found that of 3,200 troops at the Hangzhou garrison about 2,200 were able to draw bows of strengths six to ten [80-133], and 80 could handle bow strengths of eleven to thirteen [147-173 pounds]… …In comparison, the 500 troops at the small Dezhou garrison acquitted themselves with honor, all of them being able to take a five-strength bow [67 pounds], 203 a six-strength [80 pounds], 137 a seven strength [93 pounds], and 85 a ten-strength bow [133 pounds]. And: "The champion in a 1728 contest between the one hundred top bowmen in the empire won one hundred taels when he hit the bull's-eye using an eighteen-strength bow an estimated drawing weight of almost 240 pounds!" So in 1728, the draw weight topped out at 240 lbs which only one guy in the entire empire could draw. I've attempted to pull an 80 lb longbow once with no training, and I'm pretty sure I risked tearing a shoulder. It takes a lifetime of training to get into military bow pull strength
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      It also seems that the 80-110 numbers for the English longbow may be a low estimates. Bows and skeletons were recovered from Henry VIII's flagship, which sank in 1545. Mary Rose longbows had draw weights estimated between 110 to 180 lb. Similarly, it has been estimated that to penetrate an armour from the first half of the sixteenth century, a draw weight of about 110 to 130 lb was needed. This makes anecdotal sense to me. 70-80 lbs is a common draw weighed for modern compound hunting bows routinely used by people with comparatively little training. I shoot about 75 lbs with no more training than going to a range once a month and am a 6ft male with no weight training. Given the historical accounts of the required training and dedication required for the English longbow, I expect 110 could be on the lower end. Guinness world records has contemporary archers shooting longbows up to 200lbs, although without precision.

qwytw 2y ago

> One company that was inspired by this was the British East India company which introduced an exam for employees I would assume they were based on the exams in the English navy introduced in 1677 (which I think was almost 200 years before EIC)? They weren't fully standardized by modern standards but I'm not sure that they were influenced by the Chinese exams as much as common practices in European universities, guilds etc. It's not that obvious that standardized in the 1800s didn't just gradually develop from previous practices with limited external influence. AFAIK was the first country in Europe, they had standardized for judges in the 1740s (so 100 years before the EIC) and the "Abitur" exam for school graduates was introduced in 1788. I doubt had any links with the Chinese exams. Pretty much all Western Educational systems were significantly influenced by Prussia.

LarsDu88 2y ago
Also the East India Company was founded in 1600, predating those English Navy exams by 1677. I'm not sure when they started adding standardized exams. Edit: It's possible these EIC exams were only introduced in the 19th century after the company was taken over by the British government. Could not find any sources stating that they were introduced earlier.
- qwytw 2y ago
  They reformed the civil service system in 1853. I'm not sure it was something that the EIC came up with on its own, rather it was the British government/parliament, possibly trying to fix the arbitrariness/mismanagement/inefficiency that was so rampant in the EIC. There might be some Chinese influence coming through the Jesuits as early as the 1600s. However the early European "exams" in the 1700s seem to have been very different e.g. basically you'd join the navy, or the civil service (in Prussia) in an entry level position, learn on the job for a few years and then take some semi-formal oral exam before by a panel of senior officials. So probably much closer to the guild style system than actual standardized exams which didn't really came until the 1800s. And of course you are already hade to come from a fairly affluent/well-connected background just to get in.