7 ms·

It's about time our national infrastructure benefitted from foreign taxpayer money, considering how often it's been the other way around! Especially with the ra

by snalty 2y ago

It's about time our national infrastructure benefitted from foreign taxpayer money, considering how often it's been the other way around! Especially with the railways.

Hikikomori 2y ago
Didn't you put yourself in that situation?
- ben_w 2y ago
  In UK elections, because it's not a 2-party system, the winner usually has less than half of the votes. But even if they didn't, losers don't have to take it quietly. But even if they did, governments are complex representatives, not ongoing referendums on each individual topic, so we can agree with 80% of the party we vote for and strongly disagree with the rest of their policies. The cynical alternative is that democracy is a way to get everyone to shut up: if you voted for them it's your fault, if you voted against them you need to obey the will of the people (if you voted for a minor party you wasted your vote), if you're too young to vote then you're naïve to real issues, and if you didn't vote at all then you silenced yourself. (Sometimes I'm the cynic).
  - Gud 2y ago
    *representative democracy, the lowest form of democracy.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    > democracy is a way to get everyone to shut up Democracy is a way to get people to acquiesce without violence. If you look at history, it's remarkable how common insurgencies and succession crises or breakaway warlords are.
    - mncharity 2y ago
      A recent discussion[1] suggests China's ~500 CE Keju imperial exam was designed as a royal ranking system to reduce violent political fights between noble houses. But at a cost of stagnated innovation. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41624827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41624827
    - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
      It's like a release valve, no point in going out rioting if you can vote the bastards out in the next election.
      - imtringued 2y ago
        This is also how most professional licensing works. The idea isn't that the license guarantees quality, it's that the license can be revoked when the licensee in question makes an egregious mistake. Democracy isn't about voting people in. A monarchy or dictatorship can be voted in and stay permanently. The point is to vote people out of power.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  FPTP systems suffer from a very high percentage of wasted votes. If voting systems were judged like normal IT systems, FPTP would be considered defective by design.
  - DrScientist 2y ago
    FPTP has the redeeming property of being unstable. A fully proportional system ends up with a status quo, with people who are good at doing deals in power - this an recipe for a cesspool of corruption and indolence. I favour the middle ground of alternative vote.
lostlogin 2y ago
I don’t understand this comment - could you explain why? Do other countries benefit from UK railways?
- griffzhowl 2y ago
  Privatization of UK rail services meant that they were given out on government tenders to "private" companies, and a few of these companies that won the tenders are owned by foreign govts. Netherlands is one I believe, maybe France too.
  - lpribis 2y ago
    Some examples: - c2c and Avanti West Coast: partially and fully owned by Trenitalia which is wholly owned by the Italian government - London Overground, Chilltern Railways, CrossCountry, Grand Central: Owned by Deutche Bahn until June 2024 which is wholly owned by the German government - Elizabeth line: Wholly owned by MTR transport which is wholly owned by Hong Kong government I'm sure there are a lot more I missed. It doesn't just appy to foreign governments either. The UK government subsidized all TOCs with taxpayer money, many of which turned around and gave out dividents to shareholds (foreign government or not).
- matt-p 2y ago
  Majority (particularly by ticket sales) of uk train operators (TOCs) are foreign owned[1] and operators are "TBTF" and subsidised by the government, in 2023 this was over 4 Billion pounds, meanwhile each TOC is paying out millions in dividends to share holders[2]. 1 - https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reveals-that-75-of-uk-rail-now-foreign-owned/ https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reveals-that-75-of-uk-rail-n... 2 - https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/rail-factsheet-2023/rail-factsheet-2023#:~:text=Figure%2017%3A%20Net%20subsidy%20to%20TOCs%20from%20Government%20in%20Great%20Britain%2C%20financial%20year%20ending%20March%201986%20to%20financial%20year%20ending%20March%202023%2C%20billions%2C%20real%20terms%20based%20on%202023%20prices https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/rail-factsheet-2023...
  - bpye 2y ago
blitzar 2y ago
We were laughing at the stupid foreigners who don't understand maths when they bought these things from us. Humble pie is a wonderful dish.

by snalty 2y ago

It's about time our national infrastructure benefitted from foreign taxpayer money, considering how often it's been the other way around! Especially with the railways.

Hikikomori 2y ago

Didn't you put yourself in that situation?

ben_w 2y ago
In UK elections, because it's not a 2-party system, the winner usually has less than half of the votes. But even if they didn't, losers don't have to take it quietly. But even if they did, governments are complex representatives, not ongoing referendums on each individual topic, so we can agree with 80% of the party we vote for and strongly disagree with the rest of their policies. The cynical alternative is that democracy is a way to get everyone to shut up: if you voted for them it's your fault, if you voted against them you need to obey the will of the people (if you voted for a minor party you wasted your vote), if you're too young to vote then you're naïve to real issues, and if you didn't vote at all then you silenced yourself. (Sometimes I'm the cynic).
- Gud 2y ago
  *representative democracy, the lowest form of democracy.
- pjc50 2y ago
  > democracy is a way to get everyone to shut up Democracy is a way to get people to acquiesce without violence. If you look at history, it's remarkable how common insurgencies and succession crises or breakaway warlords are.
  - mncharity 2y ago
    A recent discussion[1] suggests China's ~500 CE Keju imperial exam was designed as a royal ranking system to reduce violent political fights between noble houses. But at a cost of stagnated innovation. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41624827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41624827
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    It's like a release valve, no point in going out rioting if you can vote the bastards out in the next election.
    - imtringued 2y ago
      This is also how most professional licensing works. The idea isn't that the license guarantees quality, it's that the license can be revoked when the licensee in question makes an egregious mistake. Democracy isn't about voting people in. A monarchy or dictatorship can be voted in and stay permanently. The point is to vote people out of power.
inglor_cz 2y ago
FPTP systems suffer from a very high percentage of wasted votes. If voting systems were judged like normal IT systems, FPTP would be considered defective by design.
- DrScientist 2y ago
  FPTP has the redeeming property of being unstable. A fully proportional system ends up with a status quo, with people who are good at doing deals in power - this an recipe for a cesspool of corruption and indolence. I favour the middle ground of alternative vote.

lostlogin 2y ago

I don’t understand this comment - could you explain why? Do other countries benefit from UK railways?

griffzhowl 2y ago
Privatization of UK rail services meant that they were given out on government tenders to "private" companies, and a few of these companies that won the tenders are owned by foreign govts. Netherlands is one I believe, maybe France too.
- lpribis 2y ago
  Some examples: - c2c and Avanti West Coast: partially and fully owned by Trenitalia which is wholly owned by the Italian government - London Overground, Chilltern Railways, CrossCountry, Grand Central: Owned by Deutche Bahn until June 2024 which is wholly owned by the German government - Elizabeth line: Wholly owned by MTR transport which is wholly owned by Hong Kong government I'm sure there are a lot more I missed. It doesn't just appy to foreign governments either. The UK government subsidized all TOCs with taxpayer money, many of which turned around and gave out dividents to shareholds (foreign government or not).
matt-p 2y ago
Majority (particularly by ticket sales) of uk train operators (TOCs) are foreign owned[1] and operators are "TBTF" and subsidised by the government, in 2023 this was over 4 Billion pounds, meanwhile each TOC is paying out millions in dividends to share holders[2]. 1 - https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reveals-that-75-of-uk-rail-now-foreign-owned/ https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reveals-that-75-of-uk-rail-n... 2 - https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/rail-factsheet-2023/rail-factsheet-2023#:~:text=Figure%2017%3A%20Net%20subsidy%20to%20TOCs%20from%20Government%20in%20Great%20Britain%2C%20financial%20year%20ending%20March%201986%20to%20financial%20year%20ending%20March%202023%2C%20billions%2C%20real%20terms%20based%20on%202023%20prices https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/rail-factsheet-2023...
- bpye 2y ago

blitzar 2y ago

We were laughing at the stupid foreigners who don't understand maths when they bought these things from us. Humble pie is a wonderful dish.