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> As the cost of Hinkley Point has increased, the backers have had to provide more funding. The souring of relations between Britain and China saw CGN stop prov
by roenxi 2y ago
> As the cost of Hinkley Point has increased, the backers have had to provide more funding. The souring of relations between Britain and China saw CGN stop providing any more money, leaving EDF to fund the shortfall. EDF has called upon the UK government to help out with the escalating cost but it has refused. EDF was fully nationalised in 2023, leaving the French taxpayer to pick up the tab for the cost overruns.
That paragraph might be the high point of the article.
- dingdingdang 2y agoAbsolutely. Thanks for the highlighting! Edit: It's a two-in-one good news afaiac: China withdrawing funding(/influence) and some sort of accountability applied to mega projects rather than just throwing (and eventually devaluing) more and more money at things.
- the_mitsuhiko 2y agoI’m not sure what the win is here. I doubt the French tax payer is winning and the French government is trying for the UK to help with the bill.
- snalty 2y agoIt's about time our national infrastructure benefitted from foreign taxpayer money, considering how often it's been the other way around! Especially with the railways.
- Hikikomori 2y agoDidn't you put yourself in that situation?
- ben_w 2y agoIn UK elections, because it's not a 2-party system, the winner usually has less than half of the votes. But even if they didn't, losers don't have to take it quietly. But even if they did, governments are complex representatives, not ongoing referendums on each individual topic, so we can agree with 80% of the party we vote for and strongly disagree with the rest of their policies. The cynical alternative is that democracy is a way to get everyone to shut up: if you voted for them it's your fault, if you voted against them you need to obey the will of the people (if you voted for a minor party you wasted your vote), if you're too young to vote then you're naïve to real issues, and if you didn't vote at all then you silenced yourself. (Sometimes I'm the cynic).
- Gud 2y ago*representative democracy, the lowest form of democracy.
- pjc50 2y ago> democracy is a way to get everyone to shut up Democracy is a way to get people to acquiesce without violence. If you look at history, it's remarkable how common insurgencies and succession crises or breakaway warlords are.
- mncharity 2y agoA recent discussion[1] suggests China's ~500 CE Keju imperial exam was designed as a royal ranking system to reduce violent political fights between noble houses. But at a cost of stagnated innovation. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41624827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41624827
- tonyedgecombe 2y agoIt's like a release valve, no point in going out rioting if you can vote the bastards out in the next election.
- imtringued 2y agoThis is also how most professional licensing works. The idea isn't that the license guarantees quality, it's that the license can be revoked when the licensee in question makes an egregious mistake. Democracy isn't about voting people in. A monarchy or dictatorship can be voted in and stay permanently. The point is to vote people out of power.
- inglor_cz 2y agoFPTP systems suffer from a very high percentage of wasted votes. If voting systems were judged like normal IT systems, FPTP would be considered defective by design.
- DrScientist 2y agoFPTP has the redeeming property of being unstable. A fully proportional system ends up with a status quo, with people who are good at doing deals in power - this an recipe for a cesspool of corruption and indolence. I favour the middle ground of alternative vote.
- lostlogin 2y agoI don’t understand this comment - could you explain why? Do other countries benefit from UK railways?
- griffzhowl 2y agoPrivatization of UK rail services meant that they were given out on government tenders to "private" companies, and a few of these companies that won the tenders are owned by foreign govts. Netherlands is one I believe, maybe France too.
- lpribis 2y agoSome examples: - c2c and Avanti West Coast: partially and fully owned by Trenitalia which is wholly owned by the Italian government - London Overground, Chilltern Railways, CrossCountry, Grand Central: Owned by Deutche Bahn until June 2024 which is wholly owned by the German government - Elizabeth line: Wholly owned by MTR transport which is wholly owned by Hong Kong government I'm sure there are a lot more I missed. It doesn't just appy to foreign governments either. The UK government subsidized all TOCs with taxpayer money, many of which turned around and gave out dividents to shareholds (foreign government or not).
- matt-p 2y agoMajority (particularly by ticket sales) of uk train operators (TOCs) are foreign owned[1] and operators are "TBTF" and subsidised by the government, in 2023 this was over 4 Billion pounds, meanwhile each TOC is paying out millions in dividends to share holders[2]. 1 - https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reveals-that-75-of-uk-rail-now-foreign-owned/ https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reveals-that-75-of-uk-rail-n... 2 - https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/rail-factsheet-2023/rail-factsheet-2023#:~:text=Figure%2017%3A%20Net%20subsidy%20to%20TOCs%20from%20Government%20in%20Great%20Britain%2C%20financial%20year%20ending%20March%201986%20to%20financial%20year%20ending%20March%202023%2C%20billions%2C%20real%20terms%20based%20on%202023%20prices https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/rail-factsheet-2023...
- bpye 2y ago
- blitzar 2y agoWe were laughing at the stupid foreigners who don't understand maths when they bought these things from us. Humble pie is a wonderful dish.
- chickenbig 2y agoAnd this level of risk (and realised overrun) accounts for part of the higher CfD price at the start.
- griffzhowl 2y agoOTOH if I understand it right the French "taxpayer", i.e. govt, will be the beneficiary of the above-market price for electricity produced by the plant that the UK has guaranteed, presumably for the lifespan of the plant, which is 60 years. So I presume that will be a net gain for France, otherwise there would be no sense in continuing with the project.
- davedx 2y agoWeren’t those agreements made way back before the giant cost overuns?
- pfdietz 2y agoYes. Huge mistake for France, that. Fixed price contracts in the nuclear industry have rarely if ever worked out well for the suppliers. Contrast this with renewables which typically come in within 10% of the contracted price.
- tonyedgecombe 2y agoYes, it seems the only projects that have larger cost overruns than nuclear power stations is dealing with nuclear waste.
- chickenbig 2y agoI take it you are referring to https://x.com/BentFlyvbjerg/status/1662016016493191169 https://x.com/BentFlyvbjerg/status/1662016016493191169 Interestingly the nuclear data implies that those (45% of) projects not in the tail (defined as >= 50% cost overrun) have a mean overrun of 17.33%. 120% = 0.45 * X% + 0.55 * 204% therefore X% = (120% - 0.55 * 204%)/0.45 = 17.33%
- chickenbig 2y agoDon't forget the Olympics, with a format designed to minimise the learnings. Note that the point of the article was that the design is being proven, lessons are being learnt, and the skills of individuals and organisations developed, which reduces the risk of overruns etc.