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With SteamOS, they solved their dependency on Windows. Now, they're trying to stop being tied to x86. ARM64 is being tested because hardware is already widely
by snvzz 2y ago
With SteamOS, they solved their dependency on Windows.
Now, they're trying to stop being tied to x86.
ARM64 is being tested because hardware is already widely deployed, but not being tied to x86 is the important part. Enabling e.g. RISC-V as well.
- pjmlp 2y agoThey are fully dependent on Windows Games developed for Windows. They are only working really hard not to pay for Windows OS licences. The day they actually support native Linux games, instead of doing Windows API translation is when I believe they are actually serious about Linux games, and not saving OS licenses.
- boomboomsubban 2y agoAre you suggesting they aren't serious about Linux unless they stop selling games without a native Linux version?
- kranke155 2y agowhich would be insanity, considering the numbers...
- pjmlp 2y agoYes
- boomboomsubban 2y agoNever happening, it'd destroy Steam instantly. Even as someone who tries to predominantly buy games with a native Linux version, it's not something I really want. If I have some desire to play a game from 2008 again, I'm glad Steam will still offer me the Windows version.
- jasonjmcghee 2y agoOn my deck, I can run native Linux games
- pjmlp 2y agoSure, pity that the large majority on Steam library are running on top of Proton.
- yazaddaruvala 2y agoCould you help me understand why that is a pity? Seems like Valve’s adapter pattern is a great development tool to get Linux games without dev studios spending excessive dev time/money on it. Is Proton in some way inferior to native?
- mariusor 2y agoI can think of one thing, which might not be what parent meant: the incentive of developing for linux, or paying porters like icculus and flibitijibibo to build a native version goes out the window, and the need for their kind of craft goes away. Frankly when the SteamDeck launched I hoped that game developers will start treating it as they do any other console and build specifically for it, but sadly Proton prevented that from happening.
- timschmidt 2y agoI don't think Proton has prevented anything. In fact, without it, and the back catalog of Windows games it makes available on SteamDeck, I doubt the handheld would have been as popular. SteamDeck was successful enough to get a re-release in the form of the OLED model, which is a big success for a Linux handheld. The longer Valve remains committed to the platform, and the more devices they get into the hands of consumers, the more attractive native Linux games will look to developers.
- mariusor 2y ago
- missblit 2y agoSteam has supported native Linux games for a decade.
- pjmlp 2y agoIt has, yet the focus is all about Proton.
- imtringued 2y agoMaybe because there is a large backlog of old games that will never be ported to Linux? Have you considered that game developers and not valve are responsible for providing a Linux port of their game and so far have managed to do a worse job than a DirectX implementation for Linux? The collective time spent on developing proton is probably less than a dozen high profile Linux ports. The latest commit to proton 9.0 is three weeks ago. The latest commit to an experimental branch is 3 days ago and it is just an update of a wine version and no other commits. A lot of proton commits just update a version here and there. The focus is certainly not on proton. It is simply very cheap to work on it, because it is highly effective. The steam deck probably cost them more software and hardware developer hours than proton.
- Beretta_Vexee 2y agothe majority of users have no idea what OS is actually running on their steamdeck and don't want to worry about it. Proton makes it possible to maintain a large library of older games on the platform. Like any Steam user since Half-life 2, I must have accumulated over a hundred games in my library. I think Valve knows better than we do what users want.
- flohofwoe 2y agoTBH running through a Win32/DX API shim isn't much different than running through SDL, yet Linux games using the SDL are considered "native" but Win32 games running through Proton are not? (the Win32 and DX APIs are also much more straightforward to use than wrestling directly with X11, Wayland, Vulkan and the Linux audio API flavour of the month)
- throwaway2048 2y agoall valve games are linux native, as are lots of steam releases
- pjmlp 2y agoThe point is about the large majority that runs on top of Proton.
- Beretta_Vexee 2y agoThere are tens of thousands of titles on Steam, developed since 2004. It's going to be a while before the majority of the catalogue is Linux native.
- khorne 2y agoYou mean all the games that aren't Valve games? How is Valve supposed to create native Linux ports for them?
- pjmlp 2y agoLike other stores, put them into the contract.
- weberer 2y agoAll modern games developed by Valve support Linux natively. They don't have much control over what other companies do.
- pjmlp 2y agoYes they do, put requirements on steam like any console vendor.
- kelnos 2y agoFeels like you're moving the goalposts. You said: > The day they actually support native Linux games They do, and have for a long time now, for nearly all of their own releases. There's not much more they can do than that; they don't control what platforms other companies want to port to.
- Scramblejams 2y agoValve got a scare with Windows 8 that they could be pushed off the platform.[0] It became clear to them that they were just guests in a house owned by Microsoft. That was in 2012, the first Steam Machine (running Linux) came out 3 years later and they've been working at it ever since. It's not about saving the cost of a license, it's about guaranteeing their own survival. As for "supporting native games," I take that to mean "sufficiently incentivize game devs to port their games to Linux." How would that work, or did you have something else in mind? [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18996377 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18996377
- pjmlp 2y agoCurrently their survival depends mostly on Windows games, developed for Windows. It would work by placing carrots and whips in place for anyone that wants to target their shop, just like console vendors do.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ywvcbk 2y ago> They are only working really hard not to pay for Windows OS licences. In what way are they supposed to be paying for Windows licenses? What do you even mean by that? You aren’t required to give 30% to MS to ships Windows apps (nor macOS) If anything they are trying to build a moat, good-luck playing Xbox games on your Steam Deck if you don’t go out of your way to install Windows. Making them affectively a monopoly for now.
- gpderetta 2y agoValve doesn't ship Windows on the SD, hence doesn't need to pay a license for it. Nothing prevents MS for porting their launcher to SD and running the games on SD.
- potwinkle 2y agoWhat are you talking about? Practically every Valve game has a native (non-Proton) Linux port. Every Counter-Strike, every Team Fortress, every Half-Life (even Alyx), every Portal, DOTA 2, Artifact.
- pjmlp 2y agoI am not talking about Valve....
- kelnos 2y ago> They are fully dependent on Windows Games developed for Windows. Sure, but they don't want to be dependent on Windows itself. If they can run all those Windows games on another OS, that's a win. Proton is pretty amazing, even if it's not 100%. And if game devs for some cataclysmic reason abandon Windows, they'll figure that out too.
- pjmlp 2y agoMore like Valve will eventually get its OS/2 moment.
- a2128 2y agoThe cost of developing and maintaining Proton, Linux driver improvements, and their own Arch-based OS has probably exceeded the amount they saved by not shipping Windows on Steam Deck. But what they got in return is a much more usable gaming operating system that doesn't constantly pester you about switching to Edge, using Copilot or draining all your battery for an update while you game What they got in return is freedom from Microsoft's arbitrary OEM hardware requirements like having a front camera for Windows Hello, or having a TPM What they got in return ultimately is leverage. As sibling comment mentioned, they were in fear that they could be kicked off of Windows by Microsoft. Now, Microsoft is the one in fear that if they ever kick Steam off, gamers now have a perfectly functioning alternative operating system to switch to.
- albrewer 2y ago> The cost of developing and maintaining Proton, Linux driver improvements, and their own Arch-based OS has probably exceeded the amount they saved by not shipping Windows on Steam Deck. So far. Depending on Microsoft's continued benevolence is probably not a great business strategy when you're as big as Valve. You don't want to be caught with your pants down when MS wants their pound of flesh from your $8 billion company.
- acdha 2y agoIsn’t that basically the last paragraph of the comment you replied to?
- pjmlp 2y agoAssuming Windows games, developed for Windows, keep runing in Proton and Microsoft doesn't come up with specific Windows API requirements not possible in Proton, like plugging into Pluton that is now a requirement for upcoming PCs.
- throwaway9524 2y agoSeems this sentiment is coming up in every recent Proton related thread. Despite all the counterarguments offered each time. The simple reality is that there are decades worth of Windows games that will never have a Linux version. Because of the studios being gone. Because of the source code being lost. Because of the licensing issues for dependencies, assets, music. If not for the Valve efforts people would always need a copy of Windows to play a good chunk of their libraries. At which point why bother with Linux? But with Proton the calculus changes. Most of those Windows-only games are now fully playable on Linux. Many people no longer need Windows and that's a huge win for desktop Linux adoption. By this logic Apple should not have developed x86 translation for its latest Macs because it showed they are not serious about the platform and disincentivized devs from providing native Arm ports. Except we know that's not what happened.
- pjmlp 2y agoApple developed the x86 translation layer for its own OS, not a third party OS.
- throwaway9524 2y agoI get the reasoning from your other replies. If Microsoft extends Win32 with some new API that cannot be reimplemented in Proton then Valve is screwed. So you want them to require a native Linux version from every game published on Steam. However I really do not think Valve is in a position to dictate such terms. They have multiple competitors both in distribution and console space. Big names are already publishing on their own stores. Small indies can move to itch.io. Everyone else can switch to Epic. Steam Deck is already underpowered compared to recent Windows based handhelds. If it stops supporting Windows games via Proton then it is as good as dead. I understand your idealism. But a step like this would kill gaming on Linux much quicker than anything Microsoft could do. Because Valve is the only big distributor even remotely interested in it. In contrast Epic is absolutely hostile to Linux. And they're the ones to gain the most users in case Steam fails.
- trashface 2y agoI used to port games to linux (from windows). There is just a huge amount of work porting each game, even if the tech used is somewhat cross platform to begin with. Game devs in general (and the people funding them) are just not interested in doing that work; they have more than enough work just getting the game to ship on their primary target platforms. And at least back in my day, native linux ports sold extremely poorly. Aside from that there is a huge catalog of games using DX 9-12 and other windows-specific APIs that is just never going to get ported and that even valve would never be able to get source code for. Most of that source code is essentially unobtainable and in some cases has passed through multiple IP holders such that whoever owns it now (most likely a big company like EA or microsoft) doesn't even know what they have, let alone how to build it or even where the archives are. An additional fact is that nowadays many older games have communities that have modded them unofficially by resorting to DLL injection and other hacks - these hacks can work under proton with the windows executable, but would fail on with a native linux binary. An example is oblivion script extender and its many cousins for that family of bethesda games. Many of the more advanced mods for those games require the capabilities of those low level hacks.