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But it didn't happen, right? So maybe, just maybe, the people who did this super elaborate plan had the mental capacity to consider that option and took precaut

But it didn't happen, right? So maybe, just maybe, the people who did this super elaborate plan had the mental capacity to consider that option and took precautions to ensure that it won't happen?

throw310822 2y ago
Didn't they just kill about 30 thousand innocent women and children in Palestine exactly for this reason- because they happened to be near some bad guy (at least that is the excuse given)?
- fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
  A commercial airline is a whole different story. The world would be much less receptive to such an occurrence.
  - throw310822 2y ago
    Why, did anything happen when Israel shot down a plane full of civilians? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_114 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_11... "Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114 (LN 114) was a regularly scheduled civilian flight from Tripoli to Cairo, through Benghazi, that was shot down in 1973 by Israeli fighter jets after it entered by mistake, due to a system malfunction, the airspace of Egypt's Sinai Peninsula – then under Israeli occupation – resulting in the death of 108 civilians" "The Israeli Cabinet discussed the incident three times in secret meetings. The minutes, declassified in 2023, show that the main decisions were to deny all responsibility and to refuse to hold an official inquiry" But then, I think the only real difference between a civilian flight and a residential building is that in the first one there's people of many nationalities, while the bodies buried under the collapsed ruins of the building are all Palestinians, so we don't care much about them.
    - fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_inc... > one there's people of many nationalities Yes, obviously PR and how the world will react is a big part of decision making.
    - sceptical 2y ago
      You left out the part: "it was shot down by the Israeli fighter pilots after they did not receive a response to their demands for the aircraft to land"
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        You left out the part where the pilot of LN 114 apparently didn't realize that the approaching planes were Israeli (he thought they were Egyptian), and that he realized his navigational mistake and had already executed a U-turn before the Phantoms arrived (setting the plane on course for Cairo). Also, it's not the IAF pilots "didn't receive a response" to their signals. One of their pilots signaled twice (first with hand gestures, then again by dipping the wings of one of the jets). They did receive a response to first signal at least, but may have been confused by it, or have interpreted as an attempt to flee. It's also entirely possible the pilot of LN 114 was understandably confused and in a very tense mindstate and wasn't sure how to respond. From WP: It continued flying eastwards into the Sinai at a speed of 325 miles per hour (282 kn; 523 km/h), until the crew realised they had had problems with their instruments and were off their path; at this moment, the French pilot performed a U-turn, in order to leave the Sinai and go back towards Cairo.[6] The Israeli pilots interpreted it as an attempt to flee and, according to them, then tried to make visual contact with the airliner's crew and to communicate with them by signaling with their hands. Still according to the Israelis, the 727's French pilot responded with a hand gesture indicating refusal, signaling his intention to continue back on his way out of Sinai. The fighters claim to have replied by dipping their wings, what was once again ignored by the civilian airliner crew. Then, the Israeli fighters attacked the civilian plane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_114#Timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_11...
Ylpertnodi 2y ago
That's pretty cool if the idf can tell if people carrying pagers are on a plane or not. Or, indeed, stood next to a kid, for example.
- fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
  So because it cant detect a kid then might as well blow up a plane? Acceptable collateral damage is about proportionality and trying to reduce casualties to a minimum, it doesn't mean zero (and don't get me wrong, every one is tragic)
  - mardifoufs 2y ago
    Damn, this reads like something Hezbollah would say. I mean the rockets they launch will probably kill IDF troops, whether active or not as most Israelis are part of the IDF reserves and can be called at any point to fight. Sure there are kids around them but hey, odds are it will still also kill some enemy fighters so that's fine!
    - fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
      International law dictates that reserves soldiers that are not in active duty are considered civilians - hence targeting them is a war crime. And yes, there's something called collateral damage, which depends on the situation is considered legal, so yes, if you actually target a military target and happen to also hit civilians that reside in that target it is not a war crime. But it is a war crime if you just generally lob rockets in a direction hoping to hit something.
      - mardifoufs 2y ago
        That's great, that confirms that Israel went against international law (again). Since a lot of the Hezbollah fighters were not in active duty, and were in civilian areas (Beirut isn't a war front).
        2y ago
_heimdall 2y ago
There really aren't precautions necessary, mobile devices shouldn't have any signal when a plane above a few thousand feet. Even without precautions, the odds that one of the pagers was in a plane over Lebanon within a couple minutes of being on the ground does seem very low. Not zero for sure, but you may be able to mitigate that simply by watching the handful of flights that may be over Lebanon at any one time.

But it didn't happen, right? So maybe, just maybe, the people who did this super elaborate plan had the mental capacity to consider that option and took precautions to ensure that it won't happen?

throw310822 2y ago

Didn't they just kill about 30 thousand innocent women and children in Palestine exactly for this reason- because they happened to be near some bad guy (at least that is the excuse given)?

fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
A commercial airline is a whole different story. The world would be much less receptive to such an occurrence.
- throw310822 2y ago
  Why, did anything happen when Israel shot down a plane full of civilians? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_114 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_11... "Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114 (LN 114) was a regularly scheduled civilian flight from Tripoli to Cairo, through Benghazi, that was shot down in 1973 by Israeli fighter jets after it entered by mistake, due to a system malfunction, the airspace of Egypt's Sinai Peninsula – then under Israeli occupation – resulting in the death of 108 civilians" "The Israeli Cabinet discussed the incident three times in secret meetings. The minutes, declassified in 2023, show that the main decisions were to deny all responsibility and to refuse to hold an official inquiry" But then, I think the only real difference between a civilian flight and a residential building is that in the first one there's people of many nationalities, while the bodies buried under the collapsed ruins of the building are all Palestinians, so we don't care much about them.
  - fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_inc... > one there's people of many nationalities Yes, obviously PR and how the world will react is a big part of decision making.
  - sceptical 2y ago
    You left out the part: "it was shot down by the Israeli fighter pilots after they did not receive a response to their demands for the aircraft to land"
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      You left out the part where the pilot of LN 114 apparently didn't realize that the approaching planes were Israeli (he thought they were Egyptian), and that he realized his navigational mistake and had already executed a U-turn before the Phantoms arrived (setting the plane on course for Cairo). Also, it's not the IAF pilots "didn't receive a response" to their signals. One of their pilots signaled twice (first with hand gestures, then again by dipping the wings of one of the jets). They did receive a response to first signal at least, but may have been confused by it, or have interpreted as an attempt to flee. It's also entirely possible the pilot of LN 114 was understandably confused and in a very tense mindstate and wasn't sure how to respond. From WP: It continued flying eastwards into the Sinai at a speed of 325 miles per hour (282 kn; 523 km/h), until the crew realised they had had problems with their instruments and were off their path; at this moment, the French pilot performed a U-turn, in order to leave the Sinai and go back towards Cairo.[6] The Israeli pilots interpreted it as an attempt to flee and, according to them, then tried to make visual contact with the airliner's crew and to communicate with them by signaling with their hands. Still according to the Israelis, the 727's French pilot responded with a hand gesture indicating refusal, signaling his intention to continue back on his way out of Sinai. The fighters claim to have replied by dipping their wings, what was once again ignored by the civilian airliner crew. Then, the Israeli fighters attacked the civilian plane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_114#Timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_11...

Ylpertnodi 2y ago

That's pretty cool if the idf can tell if people carrying pagers are on a plane or not. Or, indeed, stood next to a kid, for example.

fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
So because it cant detect a kid then might as well blow up a plane? Acceptable collateral damage is about proportionality and trying to reduce casualties to a minimum, it doesn't mean zero (and don't get me wrong, every one is tragic)
- mardifoufs 2y ago
  Damn, this reads like something Hezbollah would say. I mean the rockets they launch will probably kill IDF troops, whether active or not as most Israelis are part of the IDF reserves and can be called at any point to fight. Sure there are kids around them but hey, odds are it will still also kill some enemy fighters so that's fine!
  - fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
    International law dictates that reserves soldiers that are not in active duty are considered civilians - hence targeting them is a war crime. And yes, there's something called collateral damage, which depends on the situation is considered legal, so yes, if you actually target a military target and happen to also hit civilians that reside in that target it is not a war crime. But it is a war crime if you just generally lob rockets in a direction hoping to hit something.
    - mardifoufs 2y ago
      That's great, that confirms that Israel went against international law (again). Since a lot of the Hezbollah fighters were not in active duty, and were in civilian areas (Beirut isn't a war front).
      - 2y ago

_heimdall 2y ago

There really aren't precautions necessary, mobile devices shouldn't have any signal when a plane above a few thousand feet. Even without precautions, the odds that one of the pagers was in a plane over Lebanon within a couple minutes of being on the ground does seem very low. Not zero for sure, but you may be able to mitigate that simply by watching the handful of flights that may be over Lebanon at any one time.