5 ms·

The idea that stolen voice tones are going to matter at all is one of the shortest sighted bits of AI investment - powered by Hollywood "never make anything new

by XorNot 2y ago

The idea that stolen voice tones are going to matter at all is one of the shortest sighted bits of AI investment - powered by Hollywood "never make anything new" thinking. In about 5 years AI voices will be bespoke and more pleasant to listen to then any real human: they're not limited by vocal cord stress, can be altered at will, and can easily be calibrated by surveying user engagement. Subtly tweaking voice output and monitoring engagement is going to be the way forward.

Barrin92 2y ago
Stolen voices matter because what's being stolen here is the authors likeness, his reputation that he's build in the YouTube tech space and used for commercial products he had already reviewed. They chose exactly his voice for that reason. While AI voices will aesthetically be indistinguishable or even preferable they aren't going to carry any reputation or authenticity, which by definition is scarce and therefore valuable. In fact they're likely going to matter more because in a sea of generic commodified slop demand for people who command unique brand value goes up, not down. That's why influencers make the big bucks in advertising these days.
- geerlingguy 2y ago
  Exactly. If it was a brand of pen ink cartridges or dishwasher detergent, that's one thing (still would be wrong, but not as egregious, and I might never have known it happened). The fact is, Elecrow's a company I've worked with in the past (never signed any contracts, but reviewed a product of theirs 4 years ago that they provided). They're active in the exact same space my YouTube audience is (Pi, microcontrollers, hobby electronics, homelab). There are a number of potential Elecrow customers who also subscribe to my YouTube channel (one of them alerted me to the tutorial series, in fact), and I would rather not have people be confused thinking I've sold my likeness or voice to be used for corporate product tutorials. Especially any competitors to Elecrow, who I may have a relationship with, that could be soured if they think I'm suddenly selling my voice/online persona for Elecrow's use.
- XorNot 2y ago
  Again: this literally only matters currently in people trying to steal a voice. There's already VTubers who's whole visual identity is synthetic. Why wouldn't the same happen in any other space where performance can affect the perception of content, but you can now simply engineer the performance? Like I said: give it 5 years and you'll have influencers who no one has ever heard the voice of, because they don't make content with their own.
  - sethammons 2y ago
    On mobile so not looking for the link, but a couple of years back, a motorcycle enthusiast vlogger who was this cute girl had her filter drop live and it was a middle aged guy the whole time. In that case, I recall the viewership accepted him
  - Barrin92 2y ago
    >There's already VTubers who's whole visual identity is synthetic No. Their assets are synthetic. Their identity is not. Their value and identity is in the real relationship and trust the creator builds with the audience. And that is what the company in question here tried to imitate. They didn't copy Jeff for his angelic voice, they copy him for the trust implicit in his reputation, name and 750k followers. It's the same reason Chris Pratt still gets hired to do commercials for millions despite the fact that any acting student would do it for 500 bucks and why openAI tried to copy Scar Jo in particular. All these performances can be done by anyone for nothing, but they have commercial value because of the reputation of the person that's lending their likeness to them. And that's of course also why this is blatantly illegal by the way, we have personality rights and you can't shill your product with someone's likeness without consent, whether that likeness is AI generated or reproduced in some other way.
- visarga 2y ago
  > Stolen voices matter because what's being stolen here is the authors likeness There is not enough voice space to accommodate everyone. Authors would like to fence off and own their little voice island. For every voice there are thousands of similar ones.
  - wpm 2y ago
    This was fine 10 years ago because I would, if I wanted to get an impersonator of someone's voice who carries a lot of weight, I'd have to go through to the work of hunting them down, finding out if they were willing, paying them, or I guess having tons of children and waiting decades and hoping their voice is right for what I need. Now I can sit at a computer and spend a few hours doing it. You are completely blowing past the facts of what a person's voice is, and the value it has if that person is someone special to a lot of people. Are there people out there who can do spot on Obama impersonations? Of course. Is the former President not wanting someone who sounds like him to pretend to be him to endorse a local candidate trying to unfairly "fence off" too much of the "voice space"? Give me a break.
    - visarga 2y ago
      This is not about impersonation, it's about having a similar voice while using it to create new things.
      - consteval 2y ago
        > This is not about impersonation It's 100% about impersonation. We've already seen AI voices get used for impersonation countless times. Because, in a typical fashion of what AI proponents miss, the voice itself doesn't matter. What matters is the human quality the voice represents! If a voice sounds like person X and person X is trustworthy, then I (either implicitly or consciously) will believe the product they're endorsing is probably good. This is why we get famous people and experts in commercials. This isn't new, we can just do it without any honesty now.
- sethammons 2y ago
  Like slapped together particle board furniture vs hand crafted beautiful designs, I expect the price difference to be so significant that, like the artistic wood carvers of old Japan, that the market will dry up and fewer and fewer will hold the skill until it is practically lost
hexage1814 2y ago
In my country there's a lot of dubbing, that are some dubbing actors who millions of people grew up listening to them on animes and the like, I could see companies buying their voices, because in that situation is not only about being pleasant, but a lot about familiarity. ElevenLabs, for instance, bought some voice rights from deceased people from their estate. But aside this nostalgic-ish specific context, I don't see why wouldn't they just create a synthetic voice to begin with it.
arendtio 2y ago
I am not convinced that it will be even 5 years. Have you tested elevenlabs[1]? They offer different voice cloning techniques today, starting from 30 seconds of audio input (sounds somewhat like the cloned voice but definitely not exactly the same) to multiple hours of voice input (sounds like the actual person). In addition, you can adjust the voices with a few parameters or simply create one by defining parameters. The voice from the video could be an 'instantly cloned' voice based on a few seconds of voice input (judging from the quality). If you want to do y more advanced clone, you have to proof that it is your own voice. [1] https://elevenlabs.io https://elevenlabs.io
- XorNot 2y ago
  It's not the instant cloning that's the issue, it's cloning and tweaking - I don't think we quite have the methodologies built yet to optimize it. But we know it does matter - i.e. there's research which shows a good sound quality on a voice call improves whether people believe what you say[1]. Now in any individual session, you probably can't make particularly big alterations, but imagine say, Google or Amazon shipping a modified voice assistant voice as "the default" with every new speaker box? Whether people ask for the default voice, or change it, would all become data which tells you what people are responding to. And so right there, your new "voice of Google" or "voice of Amazon" you use in other places now becomes informed by wide-scale testing of whether people listen to it. And that's presuming no one simply runs studies where they stick people in fMRI machines and play them an AI voice recording which they module according to neural feedback till it's "optimal". [1] https://today.usc.edu/why-we-believe-something-audio-sound-quality/ https://today.usc.edu/why-we-believe-something-audio-sound-q...
  - arendtio 2y ago
    So, you mean, similarly to how ad targeting works today, companies will optimize voices so that individuals respond accordingly to their targets?
m463 2y ago
"This call may be monitored or recorded for quality assurance and training purposes" > training <
- yborg 2y ago
  Didn't even think of that, I'm sure somebody has already had the idea of monetizing that, you could harvest the voices of millions of people and once that happens it will be on the dark web in the next breach and facilitate massive bank fraud.
- meowster 2y ago
  Can anyone recommend a good, seemless voice modulating phone app (that also records for your records)?
diffxx 2y ago
I'm long on humans and suspect that many people will begin to prefer imperfection in reaction to the overproliferation of ai generated content.
- ERR_CERT_AUTH3 2y ago
  AI will be able to generate imperfection too.
  - the_gorilla 2y ago
    That's convenient, right? AI will be more than perfect and also be able to be imperfect if you want it, it'll just do anything you want. Here's a better prediction: Almost no one wants to listen to whatever low effort trash gets pumped into an advanced TTS.
    - satvikpendem 2y ago
      You wouldn't even be able to tell at the end of the day, that's the point they're making.
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        Bold claim. To be frank, I'll believe when I see it (or hear it). My prediction is that to get to that point you need to hire so many editors that you may as well have just hired the VA outright. We'll get more fronts in the meantime not too dissimilar from the Amazon Checkout debacle.
antegamisou 2y ago
Aesthetically disgusting take ew. Why is everyone like that here seriously.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
>In about 5 years AI voices will be bespoke and more pleasant to listen to then any real human I believe the point here is to litigate it before it can just freely synthesize 100 voices it stole without compensation. We've been able to product "voices" for decades. The issue isn't the tech so much as its training set.

by XorNot 2y ago

Barrin92 2y ago

Stolen voices matter because what's being stolen here is the authors likeness, his reputation that he's build in the YouTube tech space and used for commercial products he had already reviewed. They chose exactly his voice for that reason. While AI voices will aesthetically be indistinguishable or even preferable they aren't going to carry any reputation or authenticity, which by definition is scarce and therefore valuable. In fact they're likely going to matter more because in a sea of generic commodified slop demand for people who command unique brand value goes up, not down. That's why influencers make the big bucks in advertising these days.

geerlingguy 2y ago
Exactly. If it was a brand of pen ink cartridges or dishwasher detergent, that's one thing (still would be wrong, but not as egregious, and I might never have known it happened). The fact is, Elecrow's a company I've worked with in the past (never signed any contracts, but reviewed a product of theirs 4 years ago that they provided). They're active in the exact same space my YouTube audience is (Pi, microcontrollers, hobby electronics, homelab). There are a number of potential Elecrow customers who also subscribe to my YouTube channel (one of them alerted me to the tutorial series, in fact), and I would rather not have people be confused thinking I've sold my likeness or voice to be used for corporate product tutorials. Especially any competitors to Elecrow, who I may have a relationship with, that could be soured if they think I'm suddenly selling my voice/online persona for Elecrow's use.
XorNot 2y ago
Again: this literally only matters currently in people trying to steal a voice. There's already VTubers who's whole visual identity is synthetic. Why wouldn't the same happen in any other space where performance can affect the perception of content, but you can now simply engineer the performance? Like I said: give it 5 years and you'll have influencers who no one has ever heard the voice of, because they don't make content with their own.
- sethammons 2y ago
  On mobile so not looking for the link, but a couple of years back, a motorcycle enthusiast vlogger who was this cute girl had her filter drop live and it was a middle aged guy the whole time. In that case, I recall the viewership accepted him
- Barrin92 2y ago
  >There's already VTubers who's whole visual identity is synthetic No. Their assets are synthetic. Their identity is not. Their value and identity is in the real relationship and trust the creator builds with the audience. And that is what the company in question here tried to imitate. They didn't copy Jeff for his angelic voice, they copy him for the trust implicit in his reputation, name and 750k followers. It's the same reason Chris Pratt still gets hired to do commercials for millions despite the fact that any acting student would do it for 500 bucks and why openAI tried to copy Scar Jo in particular. All these performances can be done by anyone for nothing, but they have commercial value because of the reputation of the person that's lending their likeness to them. And that's of course also why this is blatantly illegal by the way, we have personality rights and you can't shill your product with someone's likeness without consent, whether that likeness is AI generated or reproduced in some other way.
visarga 2y ago
> Stolen voices matter because what's being stolen here is the authors likeness There is not enough voice space to accommodate everyone. Authors would like to fence off and own their little voice island. For every voice there are thousands of similar ones.
- wpm 2y ago
  This was fine 10 years ago because I would, if I wanted to get an impersonator of someone's voice who carries a lot of weight, I'd have to go through to the work of hunting them down, finding out if they were willing, paying them, or I guess having tons of children and waiting decades and hoping their voice is right for what I need. Now I can sit at a computer and spend a few hours doing it. You are completely blowing past the facts of what a person's voice is, and the value it has if that person is someone special to a lot of people. Are there people out there who can do spot on Obama impersonations? Of course. Is the former President not wanting someone who sounds like him to pretend to be him to endorse a local candidate trying to unfairly "fence off" too much of the "voice space"? Give me a break.
  - visarga 2y ago
    This is not about impersonation, it's about having a similar voice while using it to create new things.
    - consteval 2y ago
      > This is not about impersonation It's 100% about impersonation. We've already seen AI voices get used for impersonation countless times. Because, in a typical fashion of what AI proponents miss, the voice itself doesn't matter. What matters is the human quality the voice represents! If a voice sounds like person X and person X is trustworthy, then I (either implicitly or consciously) will believe the product they're endorsing is probably good. This is why we get famous people and experts in commercials. This isn't new, we can just do it without any honesty now.
sethammons 2y ago
Like slapped together particle board furniture vs hand crafted beautiful designs, I expect the price difference to be so significant that, like the artistic wood carvers of old Japan, that the market will dry up and fewer and fewer will hold the skill until it is practically lost

hexage1814 2y ago

In my country there's a lot of dubbing, that are some dubbing actors who millions of people grew up listening to them on animes and the like, I could see companies buying their voices, because in that situation is not only about being pleasant, but a lot about familiarity. ElevenLabs, for instance, bought some voice rights from deceased people from their estate. But aside this nostalgic-ish specific context, I don't see why wouldn't they just create a synthetic voice to begin with it.

arendtio 2y ago

I am not convinced that it will be even 5 years. Have you tested elevenlabs[1]? They offer different voice cloning techniques today, starting from 30 seconds of audio input (sounds somewhat like the cloned voice but definitely not exactly the same) to multiple hours of voice input (sounds like the actual person). In addition, you can adjust the voices with a few parameters or simply create one by defining parameters. The voice from the video could be an 'instantly cloned' voice based on a few seconds of voice input (judging from the quality). If you want to do y more advanced clone, you have to proof that it is your own voice. [1] https://elevenlabs.io https://elevenlabs.io

XorNot 2y ago
It's not the instant cloning that's the issue, it's cloning and tweaking - I don't think we quite have the methodologies built yet to optimize it. But we know it does matter - i.e. there's research which shows a good sound quality on a voice call improves whether people believe what you say[1]. Now in any individual session, you probably can't make particularly big alterations, but imagine say, Google or Amazon shipping a modified voice assistant voice as "the default" with every new speaker box? Whether people ask for the default voice, or change it, would all become data which tells you what people are responding to. And so right there, your new "voice of Google" or "voice of Amazon" you use in other places now becomes informed by wide-scale testing of whether people listen to it. And that's presuming no one simply runs studies where they stick people in fMRI machines and play them an AI voice recording which they module according to neural feedback till it's "optimal". [1] https://today.usc.edu/why-we-believe-something-audio-sound-quality/ https://today.usc.edu/why-we-believe-something-audio-sound-q...
- arendtio 2y ago
  So, you mean, similarly to how ad targeting works today, companies will optimize voices so that individuals respond accordingly to their targets?

m463 2y ago

"This call may be monitored or recorded for quality assurance and training purposes" > training <

yborg 2y ago
Didn't even think of that, I'm sure somebody has already had the idea of monetizing that, you could harvest the voices of millions of people and once that happens it will be on the dark web in the next breach and facilitate massive bank fraud.
meowster 2y ago
Can anyone recommend a good, seemless voice modulating phone app (that also records for your records)?

diffxx 2y ago

I'm long on humans and suspect that many people will begin to prefer imperfection in reaction to the overproliferation of ai generated content.

ERR_CERT_AUTH3 2y ago
AI will be able to generate imperfection too.
- the_gorilla 2y ago
  That's convenient, right? AI will be more than perfect and also be able to be imperfect if you want it, it'll just do anything you want. Here's a better prediction: Almost no one wants to listen to whatever low effort trash gets pumped into an advanced TTS.
  - satvikpendem 2y ago
    You wouldn't even be able to tell at the end of the day, that's the point they're making.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      Bold claim. To be frank, I'll believe when I see it (or hear it). My prediction is that to get to that point you need to hire so many editors that you may as well have just hired the VA outright. We'll get more fronts in the meantime not too dissimilar from the Amazon Checkout debacle.

antegamisou 2y ago

Aesthetically disgusting take ew. Why is everyone like that here seriously.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

>In about 5 years AI voices will be bespoke and more pleasant to listen to then any real human I believe the point here is to litigate it before it can just freely synthesize 100 voices it stole without compensation. We've been able to product "voices" for decades. The issue isn't the tech so much as its training set.