5 ms·

I'm envious of that intrinsic sense of self worth, but I don't follow how that's a consequence of being Christian. I carry guilt and shame from sins that can't

I'm envious of that intrinsic sense of self worth, but I don't follow how that's a consequence of being Christian. I carry guilt and shame from sins that can't be rectified, knowing that Jesus loves me doesn't help me love myself.

MisterBastahrd 2y ago
It's pretty funny when you consider that a huge part of Christian evangelism is the attempt to convince normal people that they aren't worth dirt and are condemned to eternal torture unless they believe in somebody that the religious can't prove exists for a feat that they can't prove ever happened.
- norir 2y ago
  Yes, that is one manifestation of Christian evangelism. Modern Christianity is plagued by literalism and ignorance. Most self identifying Christians (and I would posit most skeptical rationalists) have not deeply engaged with the texts and often when they do get hung up on an overly literal interpretation. If one looks beyond the surface, there is tremendous wisdom that helps everyone live better today -- not just in some hypothetical afterlife. Indeed, I believe that if you try to follow the teachings of Jesus, your interactions with others and your life writ large will be better. That has been my personal experience and I had to be called back kicking and screaming as a committed non-believer. Of course, having said all that, I am personally dismayed by the state of Christianity in our world. Institutional Christianity has done and continues to do tremendous harm in the world so I am sympathetic to your perspective. Indeed, I am most upset because I find the way that many nominally Christian institutions behave to be directly contrary to the their own sacred texts. The hypocrisy is almost unbearable. But I would encourage everyone reading this to withhold judgment of other's faith practices and/or self-identification until you understand where they are coming from rather than lumping them in with the worst exemplars of their nominal affiliates.
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  That's a rather reductive take. Telling people "they aren't worth dirt" is a hard sell, for one thing.
  - TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
    Not when you're also trying to sell them your solution. "You are a worthless sinner, a transient cloud of mortal dust, with a soul that is in danger of an eternity of torment. Unless you - you know - do what we tell you." As marketing pitches go, it seems pretty straightforward.
  - MisterBastahrd 2y ago
    It's not reductive at all. Telling someone that they are only worthy of torture or destruction for not believing in an unprovable entity is actually worse than that.
- bitwize 2y ago
  Allistic people tend to feel a need to believe in something, even (especially) if they cannot produce evidence for it. This is called "faith" and widely regarded as a virtue because it gives structure and purpose to an existence that largely came about by accident. Jesus is fairly middle of the road in terms of horribleness of things to have faith in.
- nuancebydefault 2y ago
  Religion has to sell itself or else it will eventually cease to exist. Christianity still exists. That said, my personal feeling is that Christians (at least where I live) these days mostly focus on what to do right themselves (to be a self worthy God loved person) rather than saying what others are not doing right.
Aeolun 2y ago
Well, for some people I imagine it helps to know that there is someone that loves them.
bitwize 2y ago
Christian mythology is powerful because of the idea that God loves you so much he will give you infinite chances to repent and turn away from sin for as long as you live. Carrying guilt and shame for your sins won't fix them, but being sorry for them and working to sin no more will fix your future. It was even more powerful in an era when the gods were vengeful in their retribution and/or capricious in their favor. I'm not saying I like it or agree with it, but it does really bring some form of comfort to people, which is why it spread so far and lasted for so long.

MisterBastahrd 2y ago

It's pretty funny when you consider that a huge part of Christian evangelism is the attempt to convince normal people that they aren't worth dirt and are condemned to eternal torture unless they believe in somebody that the religious can't prove exists for a feat that they can't prove ever happened.

norir 2y ago
Yes, that is one manifestation of Christian evangelism. Modern Christianity is plagued by literalism and ignorance. Most self identifying Christians (and I would posit most skeptical rationalists) have not deeply engaged with the texts and often when they do get hung up on an overly literal interpretation. If one looks beyond the surface, there is tremendous wisdom that helps everyone live better today -- not just in some hypothetical afterlife. Indeed, I believe that if you try to follow the teachings of Jesus, your interactions with others and your life writ large will be better. That has been my personal experience and I had to be called back kicking and screaming as a committed non-believer. Of course, having said all that, I am personally dismayed by the state of Christianity in our world. Institutional Christianity has done and continues to do tremendous harm in the world so I am sympathetic to your perspective. Indeed, I am most upset because I find the way that many nominally Christian institutions behave to be directly contrary to the their own sacred texts. The hypocrisy is almost unbearable. But I would encourage everyone reading this to withhold judgment of other's faith practices and/or self-identification until you understand where they are coming from rather than lumping them in with the worst exemplars of their nominal affiliates.
Apocryphon 2y ago
That's a rather reductive take. Telling people "they aren't worth dirt" is a hard sell, for one thing.
- TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
  Not when you're also trying to sell them your solution. "You are a worthless sinner, a transient cloud of mortal dust, with a soul that is in danger of an eternity of torment. Unless you - you know - do what we tell you." As marketing pitches go, it seems pretty straightforward.
- MisterBastahrd 2y ago
  It's not reductive at all. Telling someone that they are only worthy of torture or destruction for not believing in an unprovable entity is actually worse than that.
bitwize 2y ago
Allistic people tend to feel a need to believe in something, even (especially) if they cannot produce evidence for it. This is called "faith" and widely regarded as a virtue because it gives structure and purpose to an existence that largely came about by accident. Jesus is fairly middle of the road in terms of horribleness of things to have faith in.
nuancebydefault 2y ago
Religion has to sell itself or else it will eventually cease to exist. Christianity still exists. That said, my personal feeling is that Christians (at least where I live) these days mostly focus on what to do right themselves (to be a self worthy God loved person) rather than saying what others are not doing right.

Aeolun 2y ago

Well, for some people I imagine it helps to know that there is someone that loves them.

bitwize 2y ago

Christian mythology is powerful because of the idea that God loves you so much he will give you infinite chances to repent and turn away from sin for as long as you live. Carrying guilt and shame for your sins won't fix them, but being sorry for them and working to sin no more will fix your future. It was even more powerful in an era when the gods were vengeful in their retribution and/or capricious in their favor. I'm not saying I like it or agree with it, but it does really bring some form of comfort to people, which is why it spread so far and lasted for so long.