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China leads world in 57 of 64 critical technologies; up from 3 just 20 years ago

29 points by yablak 2y ago

toomuchtodo 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025
drunkenmagician 2y ago
Seems very focused on academic metrics which skews the results somewhat I think. But still interesting results.
yarg 2y ago
Do they? This is about research and papers published - but Chinese academia is amongst the most corrupt in the world, so without the technologies being utilised (or at least peer reviewed by more trustworthy people) this really doesn't mean all that much. Honestly, if the Chinese were that far ahead they wouldn't depend on industrial espionage to the extent that they do.
- hulitu 2y ago
  > Honestly, if the Chinese were that far ahead they wouldn't depend on industrial espionage to the extent that they do. Honestly, if the Gringos were that far ahead they wouldn't depend on industrial espionage to the extent that they do.
  - derelicta 2y ago
    Westerns unfortunately feel threatened by the rise of socialist Republics because they assume their interests are the same as their elites, so if their elites end up being hurt by China, they will end up being hurt themselves aswell.
    - yarg 2y ago
      Unfortunately? I feel threatened by an ethnosupremacist regime that would murder tens of millions of its own citizens. Crazy huh?
      - derelicta 2y ago
        Ah yes, socialists are the Nazis now and westerners are freedom-loving sovereignty-respecting anti racists
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  Chinese researchers publish in international journals. Peer review is done in exactly the same way it would be done for American scientists. Nature runs an index of how many papers are published in top journals by scientists in each country and institution: https://www.nature.com/nature-index/country-outputs/generate/all/global https://www.nature.com/nature-index/country-outputs/generate.... Chinese scientists publish more papers in leading international journals than scientists from any other country, including the US (though it's neck and neck at the moment).
  - yarg 2y ago
    If Chinese academic research were not absolutely rife with fraud, their MoE wouldn't have stepped in with guidelines to deal with the issue. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-023-02208-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-023-02208-6
    - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
      Every country should have policies to deal with research fraud. The US does as well. You haven't addressed the point I made above, which is that Chinese scientists are now consistently getting published in the most prestigious international journals, in numbers exceeding even US scientists.
dyauspitr 2y ago
Can’t beat the technical progress and efficiency that comes from a benevolent dictatorship. China is going to run away with it over the next decade and it’s going to suck because it will normalize whatever hellish authoritarianism they have going on over there.
abstractanimal 2y ago
I guess there is a "that which is seen vs. that which is not seen" (Bastiat) argument to be made, but government investment into engineering research seems to be a pretty good deal. I saw a quote the other day I liked: "If the rest of the world wants to emulate the US model, they should do as the United States actually did, not as they say they did". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entrepreneurial_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entrepreneurial_State
namaria 2y ago
What this report is telling me is there's fierce competition for relevance in STEM field paper publication across a wide range of interests. That is very good.
breerbgoat 2y ago
Not this again. The ASPI methodology is to use algorithms to count journal citations to determine who is "ahead". They don't directly examine the state of the technology. That's not to say that the conclusion, at least broadly speaking, is necessarily wrong, but journal citations don't directly translate into implementable technology. It does make for great headlines however, which are free publicity for ASPI and whatever agenda they might be pushing.
- stonethrowaway 2y ago
  Even if ASPI overdid it, I think it’s prudent to look at China’s advancement momentum all the same. The issue is that at their scale anything they put their weight behind has immediate global ramifications, because so many countries have become uncontrollably dependent on China. So the money is definitely there (as opposed to here.)
  - breerbgoat 2y ago
    The Chinese government can pay its scientists for papers that might not survive valid peer reviews all they want; up until this year anyways. They are utterly broke, and this won't last past this year.
    - Daishiman 2y ago
      This sounds like cope. The sheer volume of practical research that makes its way into Chinese manufacturing is astounding.
      - breerbgoat 2y ago
        Meh, wake me up when Chinese factories stop using european/american/japanese equipments and european/american/japanese softwares, because that's all they use.
        Daishiman 2y ago
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Related: China Is Rapidly Becoming a Leading Innovator in Advanced Industries https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41562321 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41562321

29 points by yablak 2y ago

toomuchtodo 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025

drunkenmagician 2y ago

Seems very focused on academic metrics which skews the results somewhat I think. But still interesting results.

yarg 2y ago

Do they? This is about research and papers published - but Chinese academia is amongst the most corrupt in the world, so without the technologies being utilised (or at least peer reviewed by more trustworthy people) this really doesn't mean all that much. Honestly, if the Chinese were that far ahead they wouldn't depend on industrial espionage to the extent that they do.

hulitu 2y ago
> Honestly, if the Chinese were that far ahead they wouldn't depend on industrial espionage to the extent that they do. Honestly, if the Gringos were that far ahead they wouldn't depend on industrial espionage to the extent that they do.
- derelicta 2y ago
  Westerns unfortunately feel threatened by the rise of socialist Republics because they assume their interests are the same as their elites, so if their elites end up being hurt by China, they will end up being hurt themselves aswell.
  - yarg 2y ago
    Unfortunately? I feel threatened by an ethnosupremacist regime that would murder tens of millions of its own citizens. Crazy huh?
    - derelicta 2y ago
      Ah yes, socialists are the Nazis now and westerners are freedom-loving sovereignty-respecting anti racists
DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
Chinese researchers publish in international journals. Peer review is done in exactly the same way it would be done for American scientists. Nature runs an index of how many papers are published in top journals by scientists in each country and institution: https://www.nature.com/nature-index/country-outputs/generate/all/global https://www.nature.com/nature-index/country-outputs/generate.... Chinese scientists publish more papers in leading international journals than scientists from any other country, including the US (though it's neck and neck at the moment).
- yarg 2y ago
  If Chinese academic research were not absolutely rife with fraud, their MoE wouldn't have stepped in with guidelines to deal with the issue. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-023-02208-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-023-02208-6
  - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
    Every country should have policies to deal with research fraud. The US does as well. You haven't addressed the point I made above, which is that Chinese scientists are now consistently getting published in the most prestigious international journals, in numbers exceeding even US scientists.

dyauspitr 2y ago

Can’t beat the technical progress and efficiency that comes from a benevolent dictatorship. China is going to run away with it over the next decade and it’s going to suck because it will normalize whatever hellish authoritarianism they have going on over there.

abstractanimal 2y ago

I guess there is a "that which is seen vs. that which is not seen" (Bastiat) argument to be made, but government investment into engineering research seems to be a pretty good deal. I saw a quote the other day I liked: "If the rest of the world wants to emulate the US model, they should do as the United States actually did, not as they say they did". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entrepreneurial_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entrepreneurial_State

namaria 2y ago

What this report is telling me is there's fierce competition for relevance in STEM field paper publication across a wide range of interests. That is very good.

breerbgoat 2y ago

Not this again. The ASPI methodology is to use algorithms to count journal citations to determine who is "ahead". They don't directly examine the state of the technology. That's not to say that the conclusion, at least broadly speaking, is necessarily wrong, but journal citations don't directly translate into implementable technology. It does make for great headlines however, which are free publicity for ASPI and whatever agenda they might be pushing.

stonethrowaway 2y ago
Even if ASPI overdid it, I think it’s prudent to look at China’s advancement momentum all the same. The issue is that at their scale anything they put their weight behind has immediate global ramifications, because so many countries have become uncontrollably dependent on China. So the money is definitely there (as opposed to here.)
- breerbgoat 2y ago
  The Chinese government can pay its scientists for papers that might not survive valid peer reviews all they want; up until this year anyways. They are utterly broke, and this won't last past this year.
  - Daishiman 2y ago
    This sounds like cope. The sheer volume of practical research that makes its way into Chinese manufacturing is astounding.
    - breerbgoat 2y ago
      Meh, wake me up when Chinese factories stop using european/american/japanese equipments and european/american/japanese softwares, because that's all they use.
      - Daishiman 2y ago

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Related: China Is Rapidly Becoming a Leading Innovator in Advanced Industries https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41562321 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41562321