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I was appalled to see TSA facial recognition scanners at airports recently, where instead of checking your ID and boarding pass they scan your face. Almost ever

I was appalled to see TSA facial recognition scanners at airports recently, where instead of checking your ID and boarding pass they scan your face. Almost everyone simply accepted the new process instead of opting out. I’m not sure how the eventual forced violation of biometrics can be stopped when most people don’t care.

mmooss 2y ago
They don't understand and also they despair - both in part because the people who should help them (people like us) also buy into despair.
- mncharity 2y ago
  I wonder if there's a "missing infrastructure opportunity" here. An isolated individual opt-out has the uninspiring cost/risk-vs-benefit/principle tradeoff others have mentioned. But what if that equation could be shifted? Perhaps "I'll do the scan just now, but also, while it has my motivation and attention, I'll press the easy button to donate $N to some org effectively fighting it". Or "I'll opt out, and press the easy button to encourage others with a somewhat-anonymized "I/someone at airline-or-city-or-region-or-occupation-or... just opted-out! N+1! - Yay future!" tweet/counter"?
  - mmooss 2y ago
    > An isolated individual opt-out has the uninspiring cost/risk-vs-benefit/principle tradeoff others have mentioned. One way to shift the equation is to shift understanding of the tradeoff: Some minor inconvenience - I think none in this case - for freedom and other human rights is hardly a tradeoff that needs much consideration. Honestly, I think it's people following the herd to the cultural trend of despair, powerlessness, and worship of strongmen - a incredible reversal from American individualism I'd read has dominated the culture for centuries. More practically, a little courage and action has a large effect on others. Imagine you are in a meeting where something obviously morally wrong is likely to be approved, and there is pressure to go along: Imagine nobody raises their hand to object. Imagine the despair and powerlessness everyone would feel, that it just passes without objection, that everyone is cowed. Imagine one person raises their hand. Not only does it greatly reduce the feeling of despair and powerlessness, it heartens people, and even more it makes it far easier for a second person to raise their hand, or for others to object to this issue or to others later. Imagine two raise their hand ...
i80and 2y ago
While you can opt out, not every document check station has signage to that effect in my experience; the TSA individual only tells you to put your head in the camera frame; and most people have had An Experience with TSA officials becoming belligerent and even aggressive over small things. Frankly, it's intimidating, and I don't blame people for not opting out even assuming they know that's possible
- radicaldreamer 2y ago
  The only way to stop these things is to legislate them out of existence.
- monksy 2y ago
  Theres an implied threat when flying. It's that you won't be able to take the flight you purchased because they feel vindictive.
BadHumans 2y ago
I flew recently and didn't opt out. If you have a passport or a state ID, any federal agency has you in the system already. What good would avoiding this particular picture do?
- curiouscavalier 2y ago
  Are they basic RGB cameras or do they collect depth as well? Would even know if they decided to change the system to start collecting depth data, even if comparisons are to flat images? Honest questions, as that’s where my concerns are. Boil the frog. If they start to collect more, it’s not as simple as “they already have my picture.” Should there be a breach, I can’t easily change my face. I’m generally of the opinion that when it comes to personal data collection we should always say “no, convince me you should” rather than “sure, why not?” Other than an ever-so-slightly faster processing time is there evidence of any real security gain? My initial reaction, uninformed on the specifics but fairly versed in this type of security, is that’s unlikely.
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    I have no idea and don't know the difference but I could say the same thing of the camera they used to take my passport photo or my state ID.
    - curiouscavalier 2y ago
      That’s true, but those are also different agencies, so at a minimum you’re spreading the data (and risk surface). My concerns are generally (though not entirely) around data breaches rather than the collector. And sadly we have ample evidence that federal agencies aren’t always great at securing PII. But more to the point the reason for doing it is there, for better or worse — want a passport? Have a picture taken. In this case I am (at least for now) comparing opting out or not. You can still take your flight without them taking that additional picture. That of course may not stay true.
      - BadHumans 2y ago
Dalewyn 2y ago
I actually opted in (Delta Airlines Digital ID, default opt out) because I have Global Entry so CBP and TSA all have my information already anyway. Opting in was just me authorizing Delta to also share my flight data with them so they can match my records up. The result? Faster passage through gate security, significantly faster than TSA Precheck in fact. As a frequent flyer, I like it.
- hnburnsy 2y ago
  In what way is it faster? Do you skip xray for carry ons?
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    TSA Precheck lines are excessively long now, to say nothing about the normie lines which probably violate some population density laws of the universe. Meanwhile the Digital ID line is (at least for now) practically empty. So that's an easy 10~20 minutes shaved off. Once I'm ushered through to screening I have the same convenience benefits as TSA Precheck since it's a prerequisite for Digital ID anyway.
    - hnburnsy 2y ago
      Cool. You must be at ATL. I hardly ever run into a line long line at pre check, I am thankful most flyers dont sign up. A line even shorter sounds good, and with global entry and passport, the government has everything it needs to track me down.
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        The closest major airport I use is SEA (which unfortunately doesn't have Digital ID yet), but I've definitely enjoyed the time savings whenever I fly through ATL or LAX. The TSA Precheck lines at all three airports are horrifically long. ;_;
worik 2y ago
> when most people don’t care. Some people care a lot. But take great care not to be noticed. For some people the concentrated attention of the state is too be feared. So that is why they say "yes sir, no sir". It is a matter of survival
rty32 2y ago
I wasn't "appalled" but definitely felt uneasy about it. I am aware I could opt out and read all the discussions about it here on HN. I didn't do anything about it, despite being a very privacy conscious person (using firefox, use max adblocking/anti tracking etc). Why? I don't want to be an asshole, hold the queue and cause trouble for a TSA agent who is just doing the job and likely have no idea what "opt out" means, and with, let's admit it, no practical benefit for myself. (If anything, help myself miss a flight.) The feds and local law enforcement probably already have my face data anyway.
- username135 2y ago
  Was gonna meave the same comment almost verbatim.
- giantg2 2y ago
  If you have a passport, they already do. If you have a driver's license or state ID, they most likely do.
  - hammock 2y ago
    The TSA scanners use a hi res stereoscopic camera to take a 3D photo of your facial features. It's not the same as your passport photo
    - refurb 2y ago
      Different tech for sure. But I have global entry which is all done through facial recognition now (and matching to passenger manifests). No passport needed. The camera they used was just a normal DSLR, but it had no problem matching me. The tech is getting really good. In Singapore you can enter through automated gates without ever interacting with a person or showing a passport. All through facial recognition if they have a photo on file (citizens and permanent residents). I assume the tech will get good enough to scan entire crowds very quickly and identify everyone.
    - giantg2 2y ago
      Pretty sure many DMVs are using that tech now. Wouldn't surprise me if it's Real ID related and integrated with TSA.
lsllc 2y ago
I recently reentered the US after a short vacation (the first time I'd been out of the country for a couple of years) and the CBP now have cameras/face scanners. The agent said hello using my name before I'd even handed over my passport -- in fact I don't think he even looked at it. I assume they must be face-matching on the passport photo database.
- giantg2 2y ago
  Yes, passport photos have been used for facial recognition for a long time now.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Interesting, the camera is usually a bit behind the officer, perpendicular to the lane. Did you walk past the station or was it pointed towards you?
  - beaglesss 2y ago
    Yes this seems variable based on point of entry. I had (have?) a flagged passport for awhile and I never got the oh shit face from CBP until they scanned my passport.
    - hammock 2y ago
      Curious, why are you flagged? Visited an unsavory country?
      - zdragnar 2y ago
        Maybe like Tulsi Gabbard they made an enemy of someone in power.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - beaglesss 2y ago
        I fought in a US-allied foreign militia against ISIS . So yes.
cge 2y ago
>Almost everyone simply accepted the new process instead of opting out. Given the reputation of groups involved, I expect many people who might have otherwise opted out felt that trying to do so would have revealed there was no efficient opt-out process, just an empty offer of one, or that opting out would have lasting repercussions for their treatment during travel in the future.
AzzyHN 2y ago
I grew up in a post 9-11 world. To me, flying has always been something involving security and federal oversight. I have no problems with the federal government knowing that I have taken flight A123 to Chicago, or something. If I wanted to travel incognito, I'd take a train, or perhaps a greyhound bus.
- hammock 2y ago
  Pre 9/11, the government still knew what flight you were taking. You ID was checked at the gate just prior to boarding the plane, and the passenger manifests were uploaded to a federal database in real time. A similar process happens on trains and Greyhounds - your ID is checked and manifests are monitored - so those are not necessarily more incognito options. However, non-passengers (such as family members or friends) could accompany travelers to the gate, or meet them there when they disembark, passing through security without a ticket
jondwillis 2y ago
I have tried to opt out and by the time I finished my sentence it’s done scanning my face. You’re also facing social pressure to just opt in from the people behind you, because opting out often takes longer, or is implied to take longer, since it isn’t the default. People who also cut it close with their flight times will understand ;)

mmooss 2y ago

They don't understand and also they despair - both in part because the people who should help them (people like us) also buy into despair.

mncharity 2y ago
I wonder if there's a "missing infrastructure opportunity" here. An isolated individual opt-out has the uninspiring cost/risk-vs-benefit/principle tradeoff others have mentioned. But what if that equation could be shifted? Perhaps "I'll do the scan just now, but also, while it has my motivation and attention, I'll press the easy button to donate $N to some org effectively fighting it". Or "I'll opt out, and press the easy button to encourage others with a somewhat-anonymized "I/someone at airline-or-city-or-region-or-occupation-or... just opted-out! N+1! - Yay future!" tweet/counter"?
- mmooss 2y ago
  > An isolated individual opt-out has the uninspiring cost/risk-vs-benefit/principle tradeoff others have mentioned. One way to shift the equation is to shift understanding of the tradeoff: Some minor inconvenience - I think none in this case - for freedom and other human rights is hardly a tradeoff that needs much consideration. Honestly, I think it's people following the herd to the cultural trend of despair, powerlessness, and worship of strongmen - a incredible reversal from American individualism I'd read has dominated the culture for centuries. More practically, a little courage and action has a large effect on others. Imagine you are in a meeting where something obviously morally wrong is likely to be approved, and there is pressure to go along: Imagine nobody raises their hand to object. Imagine the despair and powerlessness everyone would feel, that it just passes without objection, that everyone is cowed. Imagine one person raises their hand. Not only does it greatly reduce the feeling of despair and powerlessness, it heartens people, and even more it makes it far easier for a second person to raise their hand, or for others to object to this issue or to others later. Imagine two raise their hand ...

i80and 2y ago

While you can opt out, not every document check station has signage to that effect in my experience; the TSA individual only tells you to put your head in the camera frame; and most people have had An Experience with TSA officials becoming belligerent and even aggressive over small things. Frankly, it's intimidating, and I don't blame people for not opting out even assuming they know that's possible

radicaldreamer 2y ago
The only way to stop these things is to legislate them out of existence.
monksy 2y ago
Theres an implied threat when flying. It's that you won't be able to take the flight you purchased because they feel vindictive.

BadHumans 2y ago

I flew recently and didn't opt out. If you have a passport or a state ID, any federal agency has you in the system already. What good would avoiding this particular picture do?

curiouscavalier 2y ago
Are they basic RGB cameras or do they collect depth as well? Would even know if they decided to change the system to start collecting depth data, even if comparisons are to flat images? Honest questions, as that’s where my concerns are. Boil the frog. If they start to collect more, it’s not as simple as “they already have my picture.” Should there be a breach, I can’t easily change my face. I’m generally of the opinion that when it comes to personal data collection we should always say “no, convince me you should” rather than “sure, why not?” Other than an ever-so-slightly faster processing time is there evidence of any real security gain? My initial reaction, uninformed on the specifics but fairly versed in this type of security, is that’s unlikely.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  I have no idea and don't know the difference but I could say the same thing of the camera they used to take my passport photo or my state ID.
  - curiouscavalier 2y ago
    That’s true, but those are also different agencies, so at a minimum you’re spreading the data (and risk surface). My concerns are generally (though not entirely) around data breaches rather than the collector. And sadly we have ample evidence that federal agencies aren’t always great at securing PII. But more to the point the reason for doing it is there, for better or worse — want a passport? Have a picture taken. In this case I am (at least for now) comparing opting out or not. You can still take your flight without them taking that additional picture. That of course may not stay true.
    - BadHumans 2y ago

Dalewyn 2y ago

I actually opted in (Delta Airlines Digital ID, default opt out) because I have Global Entry so CBP and TSA all have my information already anyway. Opting in was just me authorizing Delta to also share my flight data with them so they can match my records up. The result? Faster passage through gate security, significantly faster than TSA Precheck in fact. As a frequent flyer, I like it.

hnburnsy 2y ago
In what way is it faster? Do you skip xray for carry ons?
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  TSA Precheck lines are excessively long now, to say nothing about the normie lines which probably violate some population density laws of the universe. Meanwhile the Digital ID line is (at least for now) practically empty. So that's an easy 10~20 minutes shaved off. Once I'm ushered through to screening I have the same convenience benefits as TSA Precheck since it's a prerequisite for Digital ID anyway.
  - hnburnsy 2y ago
    Cool. You must be at ATL. I hardly ever run into a line long line at pre check, I am thankful most flyers dont sign up. A line even shorter sounds good, and with global entry and passport, the government has everything it needs to track me down.
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      The closest major airport I use is SEA (which unfortunately doesn't have Digital ID yet), but I've definitely enjoyed the time savings whenever I fly through ATL or LAX. The TSA Precheck lines at all three airports are horrifically long. ;_;

worik 2y ago

> when most people don’t care. Some people care a lot. But take great care not to be noticed. For some people the concentrated attention of the state is too be feared. So that is why they say "yes sir, no sir". It is a matter of survival

rty32 2y ago

I wasn't "appalled" but definitely felt uneasy about it. I am aware I could opt out and read all the discussions about it here on HN. I didn't do anything about it, despite being a very privacy conscious person (using firefox, use max adblocking/anti tracking etc). Why? I don't want to be an asshole, hold the queue and cause trouble for a TSA agent who is just doing the job and likely have no idea what "opt out" means, and with, let's admit it, no practical benefit for myself. (If anything, help myself miss a flight.) The feds and local law enforcement probably already have my face data anyway.

username135 2y ago
Was gonna meave the same comment almost verbatim.
giantg2 2y ago
If you have a passport, they already do. If you have a driver's license or state ID, they most likely do.
- hammock 2y ago
  The TSA scanners use a hi res stereoscopic camera to take a 3D photo of your facial features. It's not the same as your passport photo
  - refurb 2y ago
    Different tech for sure. But I have global entry which is all done through facial recognition now (and matching to passenger manifests). No passport needed. The camera they used was just a normal DSLR, but it had no problem matching me. The tech is getting really good. In Singapore you can enter through automated gates without ever interacting with a person or showing a passport. All through facial recognition if they have a photo on file (citizens and permanent residents). I assume the tech will get good enough to scan entire crowds very quickly and identify everyone.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    Pretty sure many DMVs are using that tech now. Wouldn't surprise me if it's Real ID related and integrated with TSA.

lsllc 2y ago

I recently reentered the US after a short vacation (the first time I'd been out of the country for a couple of years) and the CBP now have cameras/face scanners. The agent said hello using my name before I'd even handed over my passport -- in fact I don't think he even looked at it. I assume they must be face-matching on the passport photo database.

giantg2 2y ago
Yes, passport photos have been used for facial recognition for a long time now.
mixmastamyk 2y ago
Interesting, the camera is usually a bit behind the officer, perpendicular to the lane. Did you walk past the station or was it pointed towards you?
- beaglesss 2y ago
  Yes this seems variable based on point of entry. I had (have?) a flagged passport for awhile and I never got the oh shit face from CBP until they scanned my passport.
  - hammock 2y ago
    Curious, why are you flagged? Visited an unsavory country?
    - zdragnar 2y ago
      Maybe like Tulsi Gabbard they made an enemy of someone in power.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - beaglesss 2y ago
      I fought in a US-allied foreign militia against ISIS . So yes.

cge 2y ago

>Almost everyone simply accepted the new process instead of opting out. Given the reputation of groups involved, I expect many people who might have otherwise opted out felt that trying to do so would have revealed there was no efficient opt-out process, just an empty offer of one, or that opting out would have lasting repercussions for their treatment during travel in the future.

AzzyHN 2y ago

I grew up in a post 9-11 world. To me, flying has always been something involving security and federal oversight. I have no problems with the federal government knowing that I have taken flight A123 to Chicago, or something. If I wanted to travel incognito, I'd take a train, or perhaps a greyhound bus.

hammock 2y ago
Pre 9/11, the government still knew what flight you were taking. You ID was checked at the gate just prior to boarding the plane, and the passenger manifests were uploaded to a federal database in real time. A similar process happens on trains and Greyhounds - your ID is checked and manifests are monitored - so those are not necessarily more incognito options. However, non-passengers (such as family members or friends) could accompany travelers to the gate, or meet them there when they disembark, passing through security without a ticket

jondwillis 2y ago

I have tried to opt out and by the time I finished my sentence it’s done scanning my face. You’re also facing social pressure to just opt in from the people behind you, because opting out often takes longer, or is implied to take longer, since it isn’t the default. People who also cut it close with their flight times will understand ;)