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I don’t think he is particularly pithy to be honest. You have to realise that he conducts all of his day to day activities in public. I have seen program manag

I don’t think he is particularly pithy to be honest. You have to realise that he conducts all of his day to day activities in public. I have seen program managers do far worse than his most famous rants in meetings while working for Fortune 500 companies.

appendix-rock 2y ago
That behaviour sucks and is not acceptable. Sorry that you have had shitty coworkers in corporate America. That’s not what the world is.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  [dead]
  - Supermancho 2y ago
    > It is Emotional developers rarely rise to such power, because it is not. None of the bluster matters today, much less after he's gone.
    - llm_trw 2y ago
      It's funny how people point to how well adjusted we are today when in the west the well adjusted people have managed to do nothing of note, unless you count destroying corporation after corporation. It's the assholes like Elon Musk that have kept the rockets flying while the well adjusted planes are falling out of the sky.
pydry 2y ago
I thought he got way too much stick for that. Most of the rants all seemed to be at senior people who should have known better trying to break ironclad, well established rules that exist for a very good reason (e.g. "we don't break userspace mauro"). Look at the rants without understanding the context (which, frankly, most people don't - kernel development is pretty arcane) and the rants look worse than they really were.
breck 2y ago
This. I love the way Linus rants in public. When I was 24, I got a rant in private from PG, and it was pretty shocking at the time: "You guys just set a new all-time record in losing by being based in SF and skipping events at YC. I doubt it will ever be surpassed. Peter Thiel was speaking today. When he described the kind of companies he liked to invest in, he was describing Jobpic. So after his speech I jumped up and excitedly told him about you. He was very intrigued by the idea. I went off to find you to introduce you, and you're not here. At least now I'll have a really good story when I tell each new batch that they'll miss out if they live in the city. --pg" 3 notes: 1. He was right, my cofounder should have been there (I couldnt be there). 2. The hyperbole made it memorable. My friends still tease me about this "playing hard to get with Peter Thiel? Ballsy" 3. The only sad thing is people are afraid to be like this in public, and put on a more politically correct face in public. Linus has had the guts to be the same person in public and private. Something worth emulating. Related read: https://breckyunits.com/assholes.html https://breckyunits.com/assholes.html
- coldpie 2y ago
  These days, not having met Peter Thiel looks like you dodged a bullet. (Also perhaps worth recognizing that the guy berating you for not patronizing YC is a founder of YC. I also think you're a loser for not buying my product ;) )
  - breck 2y ago
    I disagree with you on PT (I love someone with the confidence to follow their own model of the world, rather than follow the crowd), but I agree with you that I need to buy some of your furniture! That's some beautiful stuff (https://www.aechairs.com/my-furniture/ https://www.aechairs.com/my-furniture/)! How long have you been woodworking?
    - skummetmaelk 2y ago
      Pretty wild to love someone who does what they believe in regardless of how insane it is.
    - 2y ago
jzb 2y ago
This is something I keep trying to point out to people. That doesn't mean that Linus is any kind of role model in this way - but people point to open-source interactions as especially "toxic" while ignoring (or being ignorant of) the fact that things are often _far worse_ behind closed doors. The differences being that 1) they're behind closed doors and therefore rarely seen, and 2) calling out a rude interactions in open-source projects is unlikely to get you fired or on the wrong exec's shitlist.
- breck 2y ago
  > This is something I keep trying to point out to people. I agree with your comment and would love to read more if you've blogged more about this somewhere?
- watwut 2y ago
  > people point to open-source interactions as especially "toxic" while ignoring (or being ignorant of) the fact that things are often _far worse_ behind closed doors Can we admit that those close doors are super toxic places then? The claim is not supposed to be that open source is the most toxic place ever, just that it is toxic. That there are close source companies that are cesspits is a fact too - but that is an independent claim. There are also many close source workplaces where things are NOT toxic or are less toxic.
  - tarsinge 2y ago
    You are not wrong, but this is far from obvious for most people. Most companies have strong PR maintaining appearances for people without a lot of experience. So while this is an independent claim I think it’s still to remind that.
  - eikenberry 2y ago
    People say open source is toxic because the base assumption is that it is not toxic, so it is surprising and worth mentioning when you see it that way. Where people don't say that about work environments because the base assumption is that they are toxic so it is not worth mentioning as you'd just be stating the obvious.
surajrmal 2y ago
Just because you've seen worse doesn't excuse it. Everyone who behaves this way should find ways to deal with their emotions in a healthy way that doesn't negatively affect others.
- infamouscow 2y ago
  This is discriminatory to cultures you arbitrarily believe are lesser.
  - surajrmal 2y ago
    Some cultures propagate misogyny. Abuse can never be explained away by culture. There are ways to be straight to the point about someone's work without hurling personal insults. I have worked with many people of different backgrounds and never once felt their culture truly in the behavior Linus displays. I'm not saying he needs to be politically correct, only try to be decent to his fellow person.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    What cultures are these?
- DoingIsLearning 2y ago
  I think it's also cultural. British for example are very worried abou sub-text and saving face. West coast americans are more worried about coming across as positive and use superlatives that other cultures find exagerated. Nordic and Central Europe cultures value 'straight talk' and saying what you will do, and doing what you say you will do. Generally when you ask for feedback you are expected to have a thick skin when professors/experts review your work. I am not excusing abuse but I am pointing out that it is misguided to look at one work culture through the lens of another.

appendix-rock 2y ago

That behaviour sucks and is not acceptable. Sorry that you have had shitty coworkers in corporate America. That’s not what the world is.

llm_trw 2y ago
[dead]
- Supermancho 2y ago
  > It is Emotional developers rarely rise to such power, because it is not. None of the bluster matters today, much less after he's gone.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    It's funny how people point to how well adjusted we are today when in the west the well adjusted people have managed to do nothing of note, unless you count destroying corporation after corporation. It's the assholes like Elon Musk that have kept the rockets flying while the well adjusted planes are falling out of the sky.

pydry 2y ago

I thought he got way too much stick for that. Most of the rants all seemed to be at senior people who should have known better trying to break ironclad, well established rules that exist for a very good reason (e.g. "we don't break userspace mauro"). Look at the rants without understanding the context (which, frankly, most people don't - kernel development is pretty arcane) and the rants look worse than they really were.

breck 2y ago

This. I love the way Linus rants in public. When I was 24, I got a rant in private from PG, and it was pretty shocking at the time: "You guys just set a new all-time record in losing by being based in SF and skipping events at YC. I doubt it will ever be surpassed. Peter Thiel was speaking today. When he described the kind of companies he liked to invest in, he was describing Jobpic. So after his speech I jumped up and excitedly told him about you. He was very intrigued by the idea. I went off to find you to introduce you, and you're not here. At least now I'll have a really good story when I tell each new batch that they'll miss out if they live in the city. --pg" 3 notes: 1. He was right, my cofounder should have been there (I couldnt be there). 2. The hyperbole made it memorable. My friends still tease me about this "playing hard to get with Peter Thiel? Ballsy" 3. The only sad thing is people are afraid to be like this in public, and put on a more politically correct face in public. Linus has had the guts to be the same person in public and private. Something worth emulating. Related read: https://breckyunits.com/assholes.html https://breckyunits.com/assholes.html

coldpie 2y ago
These days, not having met Peter Thiel looks like you dodged a bullet. (Also perhaps worth recognizing that the guy berating you for not patronizing YC is a founder of YC. I also think you're a loser for not buying my product ;) )
- breck 2y ago
  I disagree with you on PT (I love someone with the confidence to follow their own model of the world, rather than follow the crowd), but I agree with you that I need to buy some of your furniture! That's some beautiful stuff (https://www.aechairs.com/my-furniture/ https://www.aechairs.com/my-furniture/)! How long have you been woodworking?
  - skummetmaelk 2y ago
    Pretty wild to love someone who does what they believe in regardless of how insane it is.
  - 2y ago

jzb 2y ago

This is something I keep trying to point out to people. That doesn't mean that Linus is any kind of role model in this way - but people point to open-source interactions as especially "toxic" while ignoring (or being ignorant of) the fact that things are often _far worse_ behind closed doors. The differences being that 1) they're behind closed doors and therefore rarely seen, and 2) calling out a rude interactions in open-source projects is unlikely to get you fired or on the wrong exec's shitlist.

breck 2y ago
> This is something I keep trying to point out to people. I agree with your comment and would love to read more if you've blogged more about this somewhere?
watwut 2y ago
> people point to open-source interactions as especially "toxic" while ignoring (or being ignorant of) the fact that things are often _far worse_ behind closed doors Can we admit that those close doors are super toxic places then? The claim is not supposed to be that open source is the most toxic place ever, just that it is toxic. That there are close source companies that are cesspits is a fact too - but that is an independent claim. There are also many close source workplaces where things are NOT toxic or are less toxic.
- tarsinge 2y ago
  You are not wrong, but this is far from obvious for most people. Most companies have strong PR maintaining appearances for people without a lot of experience. So while this is an independent claim I think it’s still to remind that.
- eikenberry 2y ago
  People say open source is toxic because the base assumption is that it is not toxic, so it is surprising and worth mentioning when you see it that way. Where people don't say that about work environments because the base assumption is that they are toxic so it is not worth mentioning as you'd just be stating the obvious.

surajrmal 2y ago

Just because you've seen worse doesn't excuse it. Everyone who behaves this way should find ways to deal with their emotions in a healthy way that doesn't negatively affect others.

infamouscow 2y ago
This is discriminatory to cultures you arbitrarily believe are lesser.
- surajrmal 2y ago
  Some cultures propagate misogyny. Abuse can never be explained away by culture. There are ways to be straight to the point about someone's work without hurling personal insults. I have worked with many people of different backgrounds and never once felt their culture truly in the behavior Linus displays. I'm not saying he needs to be politically correct, only try to be decent to his fellow person.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  What cultures are these?
DoingIsLearning 2y ago
I think it's also cultural. British for example are very worried abou sub-text and saving face. West coast americans are more worried about coming across as positive and use superlatives that other cultures find exagerated. Nordic and Central Europe cultures value 'straight talk' and saying what you will do, and doing what you say you will do. Generally when you ask for feedback you are expected to have a thick skin when professors/experts review your work. I am not excusing abuse but I am pointing out that it is misguided to look at one work culture through the lens of another.