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I never would have thought that he would be the voice of reason, in any language other than C (ANSI C -not C++). He may just be one of the best C programmers ar

I never would have thought that he would be the voice of reason, in any language other than C (ANSI C -not C++). He may just be one of the best C programmers around, and has always been a ferocious advocate for it. Rust is not my language, but it really seems to be a legitimate addition to the system programming toolbox, and that seems to be his PoV. I liked the interview. I haven't always been a fan of his pithy approach to interpersonal relationships, but I have always had tremendous respect for his technical acumen. This has given me a bit more personal respect for him.

BearOso 2y ago
Rust's main problem is that libc is effectively the system API on POSIX. There's a major barrier to interacting with other libraries, particularly safely. There's also a ton of C++ libraries, like Qt, which aren't easy to do FFI bindings for. The kernel has its own set of API primitives because it can't use user space libraries. That means the ecosystem is tiny, and rust can bring its unique advantage when experimenting with secondary languages in the kernel.
- jll29 2y ago
  > Rust's main problem is that libc is effectively the system API on POSIX. True, that is what makes things harder for Rust in practice. But interestingly, theoretically speaking it's more C's problem rather than Rust's - a legacy effect originating from the UNIX-C co-evolution. Good design would command a stricter separation of concerns/sub-systems (some LISP machine people will disagree, and I say it because there are a ton of them on HN, of course).
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    A huge chunk of C's problems in the wild is due to the unfortunate string conventions and library. Just fixing that alone, would make C much more robust in practice. Imagine a libc with actually sane strings, and a tiny tweak to the language so "some string" produces such a sane string, whatever it may be. Maybe an extension could be @"sane string".
  - amszmidt 2y ago
    > Good design would command a stricter separation of concerns/sub-systems (some LISP machine people will disagree, and I say it because there are a ton of them on HN, of course). The Lisp Machine did have a good and strict separation of concerns, probably much better than UNIX even.
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
I don’t think he is particularly pithy to be honest. You have to realise that he conducts all of his day to day activities in public. I have seen program managers do far worse than his most famous rants in meetings while working for Fortune 500 companies.
- appendix-rock 2y ago
  That behaviour sucks and is not acceptable. Sorry that you have had shitty coworkers in corporate America. That’s not what the world is.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    [dead]
    - Supermancho 2y ago
      > It is Emotional developers rarely rise to such power, because it is not. None of the bluster matters today, much less after he's gone.
      - llm_trw 2y ago
        It's funny how people point to how well adjusted we are today when in the west the well adjusted people have managed to do nothing of note, unless you count destroying corporation after corporation. It's the assholes like Elon Musk that have kept the rockets flying while the well adjusted planes are falling out of the sky.
- pydry 2y ago
  I thought he got way too much stick for that. Most of the rants all seemed to be at senior people who should have known better trying to break ironclad, well established rules that exist for a very good reason (e.g. "we don't break userspace mauro"). Look at the rants without understanding the context (which, frankly, most people don't - kernel development is pretty arcane) and the rants look worse than they really were.
latexr 2y ago
> his pithy approach to interpersonal relationships He deliberately worked on improving. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/linus-torvalds-apologizes-for-years-of-being-a-jerk-takes-time-off-to-learn-empathy/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/linus-torvalds-apolo...
krmboya 2y ago
> pithy approach to interpersonal relationships These things are highly contextual and highly subjective. Culture is very different around the world. There are highly manipulative and malevolent individuals who know how to behave the right way when it comes to political correctness but lack objective directness that actually improves the situation long term
- darby_nine 2y ago
  This is absolutely true. It's also difficult to judge how much otherwise obnoxious developers take advantage of "niceness" from outside the zoo looking in. These situations were almost necessarily interpreted out of context without catching up on years of mailing list culture.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  I worked for a Japanese company that employed some of the top engineers and scientists in the world. The Japanese don't really like yelling and screaming, but I have watched managers reduce subordinates to tears, with a few firm words (literally). Also, some of these top-shelf engineers could be "pithy." They didn't suffer fools, and had the attitude that if you were working directly with them, it was assumed that you were at a level that would not interfere with their work (like having to constantly stop and explain stuff). Their end-product was really good, but it took a very strident culture to get there. I assume that the Linux Kernel is just such a product. I can certainly understand the stress on making sure that anything that goes in there, needs to be absolutely top-notch. Not just in code Quality, but also in the mindset of the people submitting it. I will also say that, if we want top be top performers, ourselves, we need to be willing to be in situations, where we could be yelled at, told our work is shite, etc. It would be nice, if we were gentler than those than go before us, but this type of thing tends to self-regulate. If a top performer is so toxic that no one can work with them, they can get shown the door. That was not always the case, but I think it is increasingly so, these days. But that doesn't mean that top performers are required to coddle; maybe just not outright abuse. On a somewhat related note, I've been enjoying watching Slow Horses, and the Jackson Lamb character brings back memories.

BearOso 2y ago

Rust's main problem is that libc is effectively the system API on POSIX. There's a major barrier to interacting with other libraries, particularly safely. There's also a ton of C++ libraries, like Qt, which aren't easy to do FFI bindings for. The kernel has its own set of API primitives because it can't use user space libraries. That means the ecosystem is tiny, and rust can bring its unique advantage when experimenting with secondary languages in the kernel.

jll29 2y ago
> Rust's main problem is that libc is effectively the system API on POSIX. True, that is what makes things harder for Rust in practice. But interestingly, theoretically speaking it's more C's problem rather than Rust's - a legacy effect originating from the UNIX-C co-evolution. Good design would command a stricter separation of concerns/sub-systems (some LISP machine people will disagree, and I say it because there are a ton of them on HN, of course).
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  A huge chunk of C's problems in the wild is due to the unfortunate string conventions and library. Just fixing that alone, would make C much more robust in practice. Imagine a libc with actually sane strings, and a tiny tweak to the language so "some string" produces such a sane string, whatever it may be. Maybe an extension could be @"sane string".
- amszmidt 2y ago
  > Good design would command a stricter separation of concerns/sub-systems (some LISP machine people will disagree, and I say it because there are a ton of them on HN, of course). The Lisp Machine did have a good and strict separation of concerns, probably much better than UNIX even.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago

I don’t think he is particularly pithy to be honest. You have to realise that he conducts all of his day to day activities in public. I have seen program managers do far worse than his most famous rants in meetings while working for Fortune 500 companies.

appendix-rock 2y ago
That behaviour sucks and is not acceptable. Sorry that you have had shitty coworkers in corporate America. That’s not what the world is.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  [dead]
  - Supermancho 2y ago
    > It is Emotional developers rarely rise to such power, because it is not. None of the bluster matters today, much less after he's gone.
    - llm_trw 2y ago
      It's funny how people point to how well adjusted we are today when in the west the well adjusted people have managed to do nothing of note, unless you count destroying corporation after corporation. It's the assholes like Elon Musk that have kept the rockets flying while the well adjusted planes are falling out of the sky.
pydry 2y ago
I thought he got way too much stick for that. Most of the rants all seemed to be at senior people who should have known better trying to break ironclad, well established rules that exist for a very good reason (e.g. "we don't break userspace mauro"). Look at the rants without understanding the context (which, frankly, most people don't - kernel development is pretty arcane) and the rants look worse than they really were.

latexr 2y ago

> his pithy approach to interpersonal relationships He deliberately worked on improving. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/linus-torvalds-apologizes-for-years-of-being-a-jerk-takes-time-off-to-learn-empathy/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/linus-torvalds-apolo...

krmboya 2y ago

> pithy approach to interpersonal relationships These things are highly contextual and highly subjective. Culture is very different around the world. There are highly manipulative and malevolent individuals who know how to behave the right way when it comes to political correctness but lack objective directness that actually improves the situation long term

darby_nine 2y ago
This is absolutely true. It's also difficult to judge how much otherwise obnoxious developers take advantage of "niceness" from outside the zoo looking in. These situations were almost necessarily interpreted out of context without catching up on years of mailing list culture.
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
I worked for a Japanese company that employed some of the top engineers and scientists in the world. The Japanese don't really like yelling and screaming, but I have watched managers reduce subordinates to tears, with a few firm words (literally). Also, some of these top-shelf engineers could be "pithy." They didn't suffer fools, and had the attitude that if you were working directly with them, it was assumed that you were at a level that would not interfere with their work (like having to constantly stop and explain stuff). Their end-product was really good, but it took a very strident culture to get there. I assume that the Linux Kernel is just such a product. I can certainly understand the stress on making sure that anything that goes in there, needs to be absolutely top-notch. Not just in code Quality, but also in the mindset of the people submitting it. I will also say that, if we want top be top performers, ourselves, we need to be willing to be in situations, where we could be yelled at, told our work is shite, etc. It would be nice, if we were gentler than those than go before us, but this type of thing tends to self-regulate. If a top performer is so toxic that no one can work with them, they can get shown the door. That was not always the case, but I think it is increasingly so, these days. But that doesn't mean that top performers are required to coddle; maybe just not outright abuse. On a somewhat related note, I've been enjoying watching Slow Horses, and the Jackson Lamb character brings back memories.