3 ms·

None of this is “well conceived”. De Moraes is way too high on his own supply.

by ein0p 2y ago

IntelMiner 2y ago
[flagged]
- ein0p 2y ago
  You’re misunderstanding who’s the “fascist” here. It’s not Musk. We get it, you don’t like his tweets or success, but he’s right in this case.
  - IntelMiner 2y ago
    What success? Twitter is down nearly 90% since he took over! https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-twitter-x-advertiser-boycott-finances-bradford-ferguson/ https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-tw...
  - redundantly 2y ago
    I don't know much about Brazil , nor the background on this story, however even if Musk is in the right here, that doesn't make him any less of a fascist. There isn't always a good and bad guy in these situations. Corrupt people and organisations can and often do oppose each other.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  Political censorship is unconstitutional in Brazil. These judges are after Bolsonaro and his supporters for the political speech they engaged in. Blatant political censorship. The constitution literally contains the words: > Any and all censorship of political and artistic nature is prohibited It's really not that hard to understand. Any citizen can understand this. It's just that it doesn't matter what the law says. Because there's no court above them, the law becomes whatever they say it is.
  - bryant 2y ago
    There's an argument to be made that lying to the public is not political speech. Relevant analysis: https://misinforeview.hks.harvard.edu/article/framing-disinformation-through-legislation-evidence-from-policy-proposals-in-brazil/ https://misinforeview.hks.harvard.edu/article/framing-disinf...
    - bpodgursky 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - dang 2y ago
        Can you please stick to the site guidelines? You broke them here (and in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41457274 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41457274 as well). If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
    - ImJamal 2y ago
      I didn't read your link, but if political speech has to be honest then I'm sure all of the politicians in Brazil are going to have their speech censored, right?
      - matheusmoreira 2y ago
        Of course. Brazilian politicians, even the literal brazilian government's official accounts, used to get fact checked on X on a pretty much daily basis. I have videos of our current president straight up admitting to a journalist that he invents numbers on the spot. These are the "authorities" who would presume to condemn you for posting "fake news". In the 2022 elections, I witnessed these judge-kings censor people for associating Lula with the Venezuelan dictator. Then I had to watch him literally roll out the red carpet for that very same dictator only months into his mandate. More recently I watched as he supported the dictator's "election".
  - 2y ago
- johndevor 2y ago
  A fascist who is incredibly productive in the free market. That's a first!
  - mmooss 2y ago
    Musk is very unproductive in the social media market.
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
    Henry Ford anyone?
    - redundantly 2y ago
      Haha, or just about any other oligarch. Also, "free market" is equally laughable. Such a silly comment.
  - IntelMiner 2y ago
    Incredibly productive? Twitter's value is down almost 90% since he took over https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-twitter-x-advertiser-boycott-finances-bradford-ferguson/ https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-tw...
- jdminhbg 2y ago
  > He's just enforcing the law in Brazil It's really instructive to see how quickly people will abandon any pretense of liberal society when they have a personal animus against the ox currently being gored.
  - IntelMiner 2y ago
    When the person named is spending their days making childish AI images of the judge behind bars, is it not reasonable to cite them directly?
    - jdminhbg 2y ago
      No, it's not reasonable to abandon the pretense of liberal society because someone made childish AI images.
      - IntelMiner 2y ago
        I mean if you need to set up a straw man that large I suppose it isn't
  - Veserv 2y ago
    Exactly. Elon Musk said you have to be braindead [1] to prefer being banned in a country over honoring censorship requests by the government. But he immediately abandoned any pretense of that position due to his personal animus against the government of Brazil. [1] https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1657422401754259461 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1657422401754259461
    - IntelMiner 2y ago
      Don't forget them quietly deleting Elon's "secret master plan" about climate change [1] because Elon decided that oil and gas are OK, actually [2] [1] https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-deletes-elon-musk-master-plan https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-deletes-elon-musk-master... [2] https://www.bncnnews.com/2023/12/elon-musk-asserts-oil-and-gas-should.html https://www.bncnnews.com/2023/12/elon-musk-asserts-oil-and-g...
- rvz 2y ago
  > "How? He's just enforcing the law in Brazil" > "Elon is the one who cut off Twitter's 5th biggest market because misinformation is the opium of fascist-wannabees like him" You don't seem to be sure on what is going on or even know what 'fascist' means. Anything can be declared as "misinformation" these days which is the what many governments commonly use to enforce censorship and for its citizens to continue to believe one narrative for governments to then continue to lie to its citizens. Why do you want this?
  - IntelMiner 2y ago
    If someone tells me the sky is blue, and then someone else tells me the sky is purple, I'm not going to believe it's purple just because "the government" tells me the weather forecast
    - HideousKojima 2y ago
      That's something you can vetify yourself though. What if the government claimed that Polish soldiers attacked the German border, you claimed that it was actually German soldiers in Polish uniforms to give Germany a casus belli to invade, and a court censored your claim because they insist it's misinformation? How the hell is the average citizen going to determine what is misinformation or not there if any counterarguments or evidence are censored? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident I have a hard time believing you're this naive about this. Either you really haven't thought through the repercussions, or you're in favor of it because it's being used against your political enemies (for now).
      - IntelMiner 2y ago
        I'd counter that simply asserting that the Brazilian government is in the wrong over Elon Musk is a fools errand. I'm far more concerned about disinformation peddled by oligarchs like Rupert Murdoch. But while we're citing history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Opinion_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Opinion_(book) This book is so old it's legally in the public domain. Perhaps give it a read
- ivewonyoung 2y ago
  Here's a good explanation of how the Brazilian Supreme Court did a creative and novel interpretation of the law to give itself powers to investigate and regulate the internet without law enforcement or legislative/executive involvent. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 That's not enforcing the law. As documented by the New York Times, the first thing the judge did after getting powers to censor was to call a Brazilian magazine article about the person that gave him those powers 'fake news' and got it removed. It later turned out that article was true so he had egg on his face and had to retract his censorship order. > To run the investigation, Mr. Toffoli tapped Mr. Moraes, 53, an intense former federal justice minister and constitutional law professor who had joined the court in 2017. > In his first action, Mr. Moraes ordered a Brazilian magazine, Crusoé, to remove an online article that showed links between Mr. Toffoli and a corruption investigation. Mr. Moraes called it “fake news.” > Mr. Moraes later lifted the order after legal documents proved the article was accurate. https://archive.is/plQFT https://archive.is/plQFT

None of this is “well conceived”. De Moraes is way too high on his own supply.

by ein0p 2y ago

None of this is “well conceived”. De Moraes is way too high on his own supply.

IntelMiner 2y ago

[flagged]

ein0p 2y ago
You’re misunderstanding who’s the “fascist” here. It’s not Musk. We get it, you don’t like his tweets or success, but he’s right in this case.
- IntelMiner 2y ago
  What success? Twitter is down nearly 90% since he took over! https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-twitter-x-advertiser-boycott-finances-bradford-ferguson/ https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-tw...
- redundantly 2y ago
  I don't know much about Brazil , nor the background on this story, however even if Musk is in the right here, that doesn't make him any less of a fascist. There isn't always a good and bad guy in these situations. Corrupt people and organisations can and often do oppose each other.
matheusmoreira 2y ago
Political censorship is unconstitutional in Brazil. These judges are after Bolsonaro and his supporters for the political speech they engaged in. Blatant political censorship. The constitution literally contains the words: > Any and all censorship of political and artistic nature is prohibited It's really not that hard to understand. Any citizen can understand this. It's just that it doesn't matter what the law says. Because there's no court above them, the law becomes whatever they say it is.
- bryant 2y ago
  There's an argument to be made that lying to the public is not political speech. Relevant analysis: https://misinforeview.hks.harvard.edu/article/framing-disinformation-through-legislation-evidence-from-policy-proposals-in-brazil/ https://misinforeview.hks.harvard.edu/article/framing-disinf...
  - bpodgursky 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 2y ago
      Can you please stick to the site guidelines? You broke them here (and in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41457274 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41457274 as well). If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - ImJamal 2y ago
    I didn't read your link, but if political speech has to be honest then I'm sure all of the politicians in Brazil are going to have their speech censored, right?
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago
      Of course. Brazilian politicians, even the literal brazilian government's official accounts, used to get fact checked on X on a pretty much daily basis. I have videos of our current president straight up admitting to a journalist that he invents numbers on the spot. These are the "authorities" who would presume to condemn you for posting "fake news". In the 2022 elections, I witnessed these judge-kings censor people for associating Lula with the Venezuelan dictator. Then I had to watch him literally roll out the red carpet for that very same dictator only months into his mandate. More recently I watched as he supported the dictator's "election".
- 2y ago
johndevor 2y ago
A fascist who is incredibly productive in the free market. That's a first!
- mmooss 2y ago
  Musk is very unproductive in the social media market.
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  Henry Ford anyone?
  - redundantly 2y ago
    Haha, or just about any other oligarch. Also, "free market" is equally laughable. Such a silly comment.
- IntelMiner 2y ago
  Incredibly productive? Twitter's value is down almost 90% since he took over https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-twitter-x-advertiser-boycott-finances-bradford-ferguson/ https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-tw...
jdminhbg 2y ago
> He's just enforcing the law in Brazil It's really instructive to see how quickly people will abandon any pretense of liberal society when they have a personal animus against the ox currently being gored.
- IntelMiner 2y ago
  When the person named is spending their days making childish AI images of the judge behind bars, is it not reasonable to cite them directly?
  - jdminhbg 2y ago
    No, it's not reasonable to abandon the pretense of liberal society because someone made childish AI images.
    - IntelMiner 2y ago
      I mean if you need to set up a straw man that large I suppose it isn't
- Veserv 2y ago
  Exactly. Elon Musk said you have to be braindead [1] to prefer being banned in a country over honoring censorship requests by the government. But he immediately abandoned any pretense of that position due to his personal animus against the government of Brazil. [1] https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1657422401754259461 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1657422401754259461
  - IntelMiner 2y ago
    Don't forget them quietly deleting Elon's "secret master plan" about climate change [1] because Elon decided that oil and gas are OK, actually [2] [1] https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-deletes-elon-musk-master-plan https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-deletes-elon-musk-master... [2] https://www.bncnnews.com/2023/12/elon-musk-asserts-oil-and-gas-should.html https://www.bncnnews.com/2023/12/elon-musk-asserts-oil-and-g...
rvz 2y ago
> "How? He's just enforcing the law in Brazil" > "Elon is the one who cut off Twitter's 5th biggest market because misinformation is the opium of fascist-wannabees like him" You don't seem to be sure on what is going on or even know what 'fascist' means. Anything can be declared as "misinformation" these days which is the what many governments commonly use to enforce censorship and for its citizens to continue to believe one narrative for governments to then continue to lie to its citizens. Why do you want this?
- IntelMiner 2y ago
  If someone tells me the sky is blue, and then someone else tells me the sky is purple, I'm not going to believe it's purple just because "the government" tells me the weather forecast
  - HideousKojima 2y ago
    That's something you can vetify yourself though. What if the government claimed that Polish soldiers attacked the German border, you claimed that it was actually German soldiers in Polish uniforms to give Germany a casus belli to invade, and a court censored your claim because they insist it's misinformation? How the hell is the average citizen going to determine what is misinformation or not there if any counterarguments or evidence are censored? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident I have a hard time believing you're this naive about this. Either you really haven't thought through the repercussions, or you're in favor of it because it's being used against your political enemies (for now).
    - IntelMiner 2y ago
      I'd counter that simply asserting that the Brazilian government is in the wrong over Elon Musk is a fools errand. I'm far more concerned about disinformation peddled by oligarchs like Rupert Murdoch. But while we're citing history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Opinion_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Opinion_(book) This book is so old it's legally in the public domain. Perhaps give it a read
ivewonyoung 2y ago
Here's a good explanation of how the Brazilian Supreme Court did a creative and novel interpretation of the law to give itself powers to investigate and regulate the internet without law enforcement or legislative/executive involvent. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 That's not enforcing the law. As documented by the New York Times, the first thing the judge did after getting powers to censor was to call a Brazilian magazine article about the person that gave him those powers 'fake news' and got it removed. It later turned out that article was true so he had egg on his face and had to retract his censorship order. > To run the investigation, Mr. Toffoli tapped Mr. Moraes, 53, an intense former federal justice minister and constitutional law professor who had joined the court in 2017. > In his first action, Mr. Moraes ordered a Brazilian magazine, Crusoé, to remove an online article that showed links between Mr. Toffoli and a corruption investigation. Mr. Moraes called it “fake news.” > Mr. Moraes later lifted the order after legal documents proved the article was accurate. https://archive.is/plQFT https://archive.is/plQFT