5 ms·

How We Found Bin Laden: The Basics of Foreign Signals Intelligence

77 points by gmays 2y ago

GaggiX 2y ago
Cool pun from "No Such Agency".
- dgfitz 2y ago
  That meme died 30 years ago when 295 had a NSA entrance sign on the side of the road, this is so fucking tired.
  - GaggiX 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      How so?
anonu 2y ago
So did Palantir help or not?
- nceqs3 2y ago
  Palantir had no role. It's disgusting they try to tie themselves to it.
  - anonu 2y ago
    Karp cannot "confirm or deny" their involvement. What junk... The company is just smoke and mirrors.
zeroCalories 2y ago
Wild that the NSA has a podcast. Part of me always wanted to work for them, and I still dream of cyber warfare, but the allure of big tech money and the Virginia location always pushed me away. Maybe some day.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  I wonder why they don’t pay more, it’s not like the government is shy about spending money on defence.
  - Arubis 2y ago
    They’re not, but they are shy about defying their own regulations around pay scales. The real money in defense is in private contracting.
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      This is accurate. Imagine if NSA paid FAANG people FAANG salaries how different the world might be.
      - knowaveragejoe 2y ago
        The NSA does pay FAANG people FAANG salaries. It's just through private contractors, many of which you've never heard of.
        dgfitz 2y ago
        Many of which you’ve never heard of. Have you? Is this just public information I didn’t see? Or are starting a conversation with an impossible premise? I also wouldn’t make assumptions.
        TechDebtDevin 2y ago
        https://www.nsa.gov/business/programs/ https://www.nsa.gov/business/programs/
nativeit 2y ago
> Learn from a counterterrorism expert who was in the room when the word came in that Osama bin Laden was Killed In Action. There’s a very famous photo of Obama, Biden, the Joint Chiefs, and National Security advisors in the White House Situation Room watching the raid unfold in real-time…but sure, I guess it’ll be pretty neat also to get the names of the folks working on the other side of town who got a phone call from someone on the staffs for one of the people in that photo.
- santoshalper 2y ago
  I'm guessing those people all declined the podcast invite.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  > There’s a very famous photo of Obama, Biden, the Joint Chiefs, and National Security advisors in the White House Situation Room watching the raid unfold in real-time… How convenient there was a photographer in the fucking situation room! Such a coincidence.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    The WH photographer is always around taking pictures of whatever the president is doing; it's literally their fulltime job.
  - stu2b50 2y ago
    First, there's an official position: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Official_White_House_Photographer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Official_White_House_Pho... Secondly, why would it be a coincidence? You don't think... the people in the situation room knew something, perhaps a situation, was happening at the time? Otherwise, why would they _be_ in the situation room? There's usually a situation going on.
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      Apologies for my ignorance. I didn’t think photographers were allowed into that room most of the time.
jmyeet 2y ago
From the NSA, this seems like historical revisionism as it contradicts the bin Laden story widely accepted. The short version is: 9/11 happens. The Taliban offer to hand over bin Laden and George W. Bush refuses [1]. Bin Laden escapes into Pakistan. We then start a completely pointless war in Iraq against someone who played no part in 9/11. There was a letter from many conservative leaders prior to 9//1 calling for the invasion of Iraq [2]. Interestingly, then Senator Biden predicted in 1998 he'd vote to topple Saddam Hussein in 1998 [3]. There is no partisan divide on US foreign policy. Anyway, bin Laden builds a massive compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, about a half mile from the ISI (Pakistan's intelligence agency). Like, it stood out like a sore thumb. It was so much larger than the surrounding houses. And there he sat for years. He had no Internet access. He communicated with the outside world via couriers. Those couriers would take USB drives and travel to distant Internet cafes and such to communicate on bin Laden's behalf. One of those couriers was identified through torture ("interrogation") of people held at Guantanemo Bay. The CIA followed said courier and found the compound in Abbottobad and, well, the rest is history. So where does the NSA fit into this? It seems like good ol HUMINT (human intelligence) to me. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.te... [2]: https://www.militarist-monitor.org/images/uploads/PNAC_Letter_to_President_Clinton_on_Iraq.pdf https://www.militarist-monitor.org/images/uploads/PNAC_Lette... [3]: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4842886/user-clip-1998-biden-predicts-eventual-support-iraq-war https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4842886/user-clip-1998-biden-...
- jonnybgood 2y ago
  Iraq was never about 9/11. The error of Iraq happened because the US followed one HUMINT source Saddam was developing WMD. Considering bin Laden was in Pakistan, it would presumably require a multi-source confirmation.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - jmyeet 2y ago
    The invasion of Iraq was sold in part by manufacturing a connection to 9/11. This is confirmed by public opinion [1]: > In the months leading up to the war, sizable majorities of Americans believed ... that Iraq was closely tied to terrorism – and even that Hussein himself had a role in the 9/11 attacks. Believing one source is simply looking for justification for what you were going to do anyway. There was plenty of evidence to the contrary, not th eleast of which was the UNSCOM inspections. Also, it's just plain illogical for Saddam to have WMDs. Let's say he has WMDs. If the US invades, would he use them? Probably not because it wouldn't change the outcome and it would invite further retaliation. So if he's not going to use them, why not give them up to save his regime? This isn't historical 20/20 hindsight either. These discussions were being had prior to the invasion. [1]: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/03/14/a-look-back-at-how-fear-and-false-beliefs-bolstered-u-s-public-support-for-war-in-iraq/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/03/14/a-look-back-...
sitkack 2y ago
I was disappointed that we never got an apology, or a plaque or wall or whatever they give out for heroes. Because all the foreign aid workers that have been killed due the CIA operation to pinpoint bin Laden via his kids DNA, definitely deserve one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_fake_vaccination_campaign_in_Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_fake_vaccination_campaign_... https://www.csis.org/blogs/smart-global-health/fake-cia-vaccine-campaign-when-end-doesnt-justify-means https://www.csis.org/blogs/smart-global-health/fake-cia-vacc... > Terrorists began murdering polio vaccine workers, mostly women volunteers, as the Taliban banned immunizations in the areas under its control. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/lasting-fallout-fake-vaccination-programs/story?id=23795483 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/lasting-fallout-fake-vaccinati...
- avazhi 2y ago
  Assuming you're serious, why would the CIA apologise to foreign aid workers? Maybe you can petition Médecins Sans Frontières to make a plaque, but the US security services are mandated to deal with pretty discrete and clear issues. Their remit was to find Osama. Random foreign aid workers (particularly non US citizens) are - vis-a-vis the CIA/NSA - justifiable collateral in these sorts of operations. That's just how it is, mate.
  - lofenfew 2y ago
    And yet > I wanted to inform you that the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) directed in August 2013 that the agency make no operational use of vaccination programs, which includes vaccination workers. Similarly, the Agency will not seek to obtain or exploit DNA or other genetic material acquired through such programs. This CIA policy applies worldwide and to U.S. and non-U.S. persons alike. The CIA themselves recognizes such an approach as being bad overall.
    - avazhi 2y ago
      What's your point? That doesn't mean they owe anybody an apology. There have been plenty of CIA ops that have failed or resulted in blowback that I'm sure the CIA regretted ex post - that doesn't mean they wouldn't have tried them again, or that they weren't worth trying. Also actual lol if you take anything the CIA says as being prima facie true, especially things relating to what the CIA will or will not do in the future operationally.
TheBlight 2y ago
This is all bs. It was most likely due to an ISI walk-in. https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/05/13/what-pakistan-knew-about-the-bin-laden-raid-seymour-hersh/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/05/13/what-pakistan-knew-abou...
textlapse 2y ago
I wonder if this helps NSA in their recruiting process - there might be a bunch of disinterested, bored FAANG folks who could 10x their impact by serving their country instead. Adding to the GDP is probably better in the long run but at this current moment where the tech world is, I think adding to the counterintelligence world has a better impact.
- monksy 2y ago
  Given the drug policy and clearance ordeal.. doubtful
  - textlapse 2y ago
    I hope they modernize and come to terms with the reality of the 21st century workforce… definitely needs a fed level revamp on the former part. The clearance part sounds like a good thing though…
hulitu 2y ago
> How We Found Bin Laden: The Basics of Foreign Signals Intelligence Which one of them ? /s
djaouen 2y ago
Thanks for this likable podcast. It makes me feel a helluva lot more viable to exist when the NSA/other government agencies make it such a livable country. -- DJ
netsharc 2y ago
On minute 38 out of 48 (listening on 2x speed), and so far there's nothing worth hearing in here.. the first 18 minutes is one of them explaining what a signal is and how the NSA keeps the world safe and follows the law, then another one of them talks in general about, yeah someone got a signal and it lead to Bin Laden. How? No further details... Edit to add: The last 10 minutes have the guest talking about the day of the raid, how only about 50 people in the NSA were aware it was going to happen, how one of the guests' wife figured out he was part of the operation - he was away the whole weekend, and she heard about the raid in the news, the emotional impact (release of tension), how they informed a junior analyst or two that their work contributed to that operation, their pride, and again how the NSA keeps the world safe, while following the law! The aim of this podcast is definitely PR and recruiting. Unsaid is of course that the USA accused, found guilty, and executed someone without trial, where evidence is shown of their guilt. Sure on balance I think Bin Laden is responsible for 9/11, but I think the source for this belief is the US government.
- pushupentry1219 2y ago
  Seems like you've saved me listening to a bunch of garbage. Thank you, kindly!
- bitshiftfaced 2y ago
  > Unsaid is of course that the USA accused, found guilty, and executed someone without trial Wasn't this a military operation? He was killed in a raid on the compound.
- acoard 2y ago
  > Unsaid is of course that the USA accused, found guilty, and executed someone without trial, where evidence is shown of their guilt. Sure on balance I think Bin Laden is responsible for 9/11, but I think the source for this belief is the US government. The United States declared war on Al-Qaeda, and killed it's leader in response to an attack on 9/11 that leader claimed credit for. Domestic courts don't factor in here. Any country is lawfully allowed to kill enemy combatants or military leadership in a war.
wrp 2y ago
I heard that the breakthrough in finding Bin Laden came from a Pakistani doctor who just walked in and told them where to look. I haven't seen any further details, so I wonder if it's being played down or was a false rumor to begin with.
- ahazred8ta 2y ago
  Not quite. They identified the city and the house by tracking bin Laden's courier. After that, they tried to get dna samples by sending in a doctor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ahmed_al-Kuwaiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ahmed_al-Kuwaiti
  - Amezarak 2y ago
    That's the official story. According to reporting by Seymour Hersh and others, what actually happened was: - Pakistan's ISI was keeping bin Laden as a "guest" at the compound after having captured him. - A senior ISI official betrayed this fact to the US, in exchange for reward money, American residency, and a cushy CIA job. - The US brought this up with other ISI officials, who confirmed it and used an ISI emplaced doctor to provide the DNA evidence requested by the US. - The US negotiated with the ISI on the terms of the raid; the ISI compound guards were ordered to withdraw when the Americans arrived. https://web.archive.org/web/20240214041103/https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v37/n10/seymour-m.-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden https://web.archive.org/web/20240214041103/https://www.lrb.c...
frank_bb 2y ago
[dead]
Sad90sNerd 2y ago
Bin Laden - what a non-sense. We buried him at sea for religious reasons even though that goes against Muslim beliefs. If you still believe that Sadam Hussan had weapons of mass destruction and ties to Al Queda then I have a domino theory Ukraine war to sell you. ...Remember kids, jet fuel and office furniture melt steel beams.
olliej 2y ago
Didn’t we find bin Laden by catastrophically undermining vaccination programs in Pakistan?

77 points by gmays 2y ago

GaggiX 2y ago

Cool pun from "No Such Agency".

dgfitz 2y ago
That meme died 30 years ago when 295 had a NSA entrance sign on the side of the road, this is so fucking tired.
- GaggiX 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    How so?

anonu 2y ago

So did Palantir help or not?

nceqs3 2y ago
Palantir had no role. It's disgusting they try to tie themselves to it.
- anonu 2y ago
  Karp cannot "confirm or deny" their involvement. What junk... The company is just smoke and mirrors.

zeroCalories 2y ago

Wild that the NSA has a podcast. Part of me always wanted to work for them, and I still dream of cyber warfare, but the allure of big tech money and the Virginia location always pushed me away. Maybe some day.

dyauspitr 2y ago
I wonder why they don’t pay more, it’s not like the government is shy about spending money on defence.
- Arubis 2y ago
  They’re not, but they are shy about defying their own regulations around pay scales. The real money in defense is in private contracting.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    This is accurate. Imagine if NSA paid FAANG people FAANG salaries how different the world might be.
    - knowaveragejoe 2y ago
      The NSA does pay FAANG people FAANG salaries. It's just through private contractors, many of which you've never heard of.
      - dgfitz 2y ago
        Many of which you’ve never heard of. Have you? Is this just public information I didn’t see? Or are starting a conversation with an impossible premise? I also wouldn’t make assumptions.
        TechDebtDevin 2y ago
        https://www.nsa.gov/business/programs/ https://www.nsa.gov/business/programs/

nativeit 2y ago

> Learn from a counterterrorism expert who was in the room when the word came in that Osama bin Laden was Killed In Action. There’s a very famous photo of Obama, Biden, the Joint Chiefs, and National Security advisors in the White House Situation Room watching the raid unfold in real-time…but sure, I guess it’ll be pretty neat also to get the names of the folks working on the other side of town who got a phone call from someone on the staffs for one of the people in that photo.

santoshalper 2y ago
I'm guessing those people all declined the podcast invite.
dgfitz 2y ago
> There’s a very famous photo of Obama, Biden, the Joint Chiefs, and National Security advisors in the White House Situation Room watching the raid unfold in real-time… How convenient there was a photographer in the fucking situation room! Such a coincidence.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  The WH photographer is always around taking pictures of whatever the president is doing; it's literally their fulltime job.
- stu2b50 2y ago
  First, there's an official position: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Official_White_House_Photographer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Official_White_House_Pho... Secondly, why would it be a coincidence? You don't think... the people in the situation room knew something, perhaps a situation, was happening at the time? Otherwise, why would they _be_ in the situation room? There's usually a situation going on.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    Apologies for my ignorance. I didn’t think photographers were allowed into that room most of the time.

jmyeet 2y ago

From the NSA, this seems like historical revisionism as it contradicts the bin Laden story widely accepted. The short version is: 9/11 happens. The Taliban offer to hand over bin Laden and George W. Bush refuses [1]. Bin Laden escapes into Pakistan. We then start a completely pointless war in Iraq against someone who played no part in 9/11. There was a letter from many conservative leaders prior to 9//1 calling for the invasion of Iraq [2]. Interestingly, then Senator Biden predicted in 1998 he'd vote to topple Saddam Hussein in 1998 [3]. There is no partisan divide on US foreign policy. Anyway, bin Laden builds a massive compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, about a half mile from the ISI (Pakistan's intelligence agency). Like, it stood out like a sore thumb. It was so much larger than the surrounding houses. And there he sat for years. He had no Internet access. He communicated with the outside world via couriers. Those couriers would take USB drives and travel to distant Internet cafes and such to communicate on bin Laden's behalf. One of those couriers was identified through torture ("interrogation") of people held at Guantanemo Bay. The CIA followed said courier and found the compound in Abbottobad and, well, the rest is history. So where does the NSA fit into this? It seems like good ol HUMINT (human intelligence) to me. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.te... [2]: https://www.militarist-monitor.org/images/uploads/PNAC_Letter_to_President_Clinton_on_Iraq.pdf https://www.militarist-monitor.org/images/uploads/PNAC_Lette... [3]: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4842886/user-clip-1998-biden-predicts-eventual-support-iraq-war https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4842886/user-clip-1998-biden-...

jonnybgood 2y ago
Iraq was never about 9/11. The error of Iraq happened because the US followed one HUMINT source Saddam was developing WMD. Considering bin Laden was in Pakistan, it would presumably require a multi-source confirmation.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jmyeet 2y ago
  The invasion of Iraq was sold in part by manufacturing a connection to 9/11. This is confirmed by public opinion [1]: > In the months leading up to the war, sizable majorities of Americans believed ... that Iraq was closely tied to terrorism – and even that Hussein himself had a role in the 9/11 attacks. Believing one source is simply looking for justification for what you were going to do anyway. There was plenty of evidence to the contrary, not th eleast of which was the UNSCOM inspections. Also, it's just plain illogical for Saddam to have WMDs. Let's say he has WMDs. If the US invades, would he use them? Probably not because it wouldn't change the outcome and it would invite further retaliation. So if he's not going to use them, why not give them up to save his regime? This isn't historical 20/20 hindsight either. These discussions were being had prior to the invasion. [1]: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/03/14/a-look-back-at-how-fear-and-false-beliefs-bolstered-u-s-public-support-for-war-in-iraq/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/03/14/a-look-back-...

sitkack 2y ago

I was disappointed that we never got an apology, or a plaque or wall or whatever they give out for heroes. Because all the foreign aid workers that have been killed due the CIA operation to pinpoint bin Laden via his kids DNA, definitely deserve one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_fake_vaccination_campaign_in_Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_fake_vaccination_campaign_... https://www.csis.org/blogs/smart-global-health/fake-cia-vaccine-campaign-when-end-doesnt-justify-means https://www.csis.org/blogs/smart-global-health/fake-cia-vacc... > Terrorists began murdering polio vaccine workers, mostly women volunteers, as the Taliban banned immunizations in the areas under its control. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/lasting-fallout-fake-vaccination-programs/story?id=23795483 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/lasting-fallout-fake-vaccinati...

avazhi 2y ago
Assuming you're serious, why would the CIA apologise to foreign aid workers? Maybe you can petition Médecins Sans Frontières to make a plaque, but the US security services are mandated to deal with pretty discrete and clear issues. Their remit was to find Osama. Random foreign aid workers (particularly non US citizens) are - vis-a-vis the CIA/NSA - justifiable collateral in these sorts of operations. That's just how it is, mate.
- lofenfew 2y ago
  And yet > I wanted to inform you that the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) directed in August 2013 that the agency make no operational use of vaccination programs, which includes vaccination workers. Similarly, the Agency will not seek to obtain or exploit DNA or other genetic material acquired through such programs. This CIA policy applies worldwide and to U.S. and non-U.S. persons alike. The CIA themselves recognizes such an approach as being bad overall.
  - avazhi 2y ago
    What's your point? That doesn't mean they owe anybody an apology. There have been plenty of CIA ops that have failed or resulted in blowback that I'm sure the CIA regretted ex post - that doesn't mean they wouldn't have tried them again, or that they weren't worth trying. Also actual lol if you take anything the CIA says as being prima facie true, especially things relating to what the CIA will or will not do in the future operationally.

TheBlight 2y ago

This is all bs. It was most likely due to an ISI walk-in. https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/05/13/what-pakistan-knew-about-the-bin-laden-raid-seymour-hersh/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/05/13/what-pakistan-knew-abou...

textlapse 2y ago

I wonder if this helps NSA in their recruiting process - there might be a bunch of disinterested, bored FAANG folks who could 10x their impact by serving their country instead. Adding to the GDP is probably better in the long run but at this current moment where the tech world is, I think adding to the counterintelligence world has a better impact.

monksy 2y ago
Given the drug policy and clearance ordeal.. doubtful
- textlapse 2y ago
  I hope they modernize and come to terms with the reality of the 21st century workforce… definitely needs a fed level revamp on the former part. The clearance part sounds like a good thing though…

hulitu 2y ago

> How We Found Bin Laden: The Basics of Foreign Signals Intelligence Which one of them ? /s

djaouen 2y ago

Thanks for this likable podcast. It makes me feel a helluva lot more viable to exist when the NSA/other government agencies make it such a livable country. -- DJ

netsharc 2y ago

On minute 38 out of 48 (listening on 2x speed), and so far there's nothing worth hearing in here.. the first 18 minutes is one of them explaining what a signal is and how the NSA keeps the world safe and follows the law, then another one of them talks in general about, yeah someone got a signal and it lead to Bin Laden. How? No further details... Edit to add: The last 10 minutes have the guest talking about the day of the raid, how only about 50 people in the NSA were aware it was going to happen, how one of the guests' wife figured out he was part of the operation - he was away the whole weekend, and she heard about the raid in the news, the emotional impact (release of tension), how they informed a junior analyst or two that their work contributed to that operation, their pride, and again how the NSA keeps the world safe, while following the law! The aim of this podcast is definitely PR and recruiting. Unsaid is of course that the USA accused, found guilty, and executed someone without trial, where evidence is shown of their guilt. Sure on balance I think Bin Laden is responsible for 9/11, but I think the source for this belief is the US government.

pushupentry1219 2y ago
Seems like you've saved me listening to a bunch of garbage. Thank you, kindly!
bitshiftfaced 2y ago
> Unsaid is of course that the USA accused, found guilty, and executed someone without trial Wasn't this a military operation? He was killed in a raid on the compound.
acoard 2y ago
> Unsaid is of course that the USA accused, found guilty, and executed someone without trial, where evidence is shown of their guilt. Sure on balance I think Bin Laden is responsible for 9/11, but I think the source for this belief is the US government. The United States declared war on Al-Qaeda, and killed it's leader in response to an attack on 9/11 that leader claimed credit for. Domestic courts don't factor in here. Any country is lawfully allowed to kill enemy combatants or military leadership in a war.

wrp 2y ago

I heard that the breakthrough in finding Bin Laden came from a Pakistani doctor who just walked in and told them where to look. I haven't seen any further details, so I wonder if it's being played down or was a false rumor to begin with.

ahazred8ta 2y ago
Not quite. They identified the city and the house by tracking bin Laden's courier. After that, they tried to get dna samples by sending in a doctor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ahmed_al-Kuwaiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ahmed_al-Kuwaiti
- Amezarak 2y ago
  That's the official story. According to reporting by Seymour Hersh and others, what actually happened was: - Pakistan's ISI was keeping bin Laden as a "guest" at the compound after having captured him. - A senior ISI official betrayed this fact to the US, in exchange for reward money, American residency, and a cushy CIA job. - The US brought this up with other ISI officials, who confirmed it and used an ISI emplaced doctor to provide the DNA evidence requested by the US. - The US negotiated with the ISI on the terms of the raid; the ISI compound guards were ordered to withdraw when the Americans arrived. https://web.archive.org/web/20240214041103/https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v37/n10/seymour-m.-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden https://web.archive.org/web/20240214041103/https://www.lrb.c...

frank_bb 2y ago

[dead]

Sad90sNerd 2y ago

Bin Laden - what a non-sense. We buried him at sea for religious reasons even though that goes against Muslim beliefs. If you still believe that Sadam Hussan had weapons of mass destruction and ties to Al Queda then I have a domino theory Ukraine war to sell you. ...Remember kids, jet fuel and office furniture melt steel beams.

olliej 2y ago

Didn’t we find bin Laden by catastrophically undermining vaccination programs in Pakistan?