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Federal agencies operate enough exit nodes to make Tor use risky at best. I have no idea if they have since implemented some feature to prevent this but if not

Federal agencies operate enough exit nodes to make Tor use risky at best. I have no idea if they have since implemented some feature to prevent this but if not I would stay far away from Tor if you're planning to do illegal things. There's also the risk of trusting service operators to secure any PII you expose on marketplaces. Not that I think the Fed's would blow their cover to hunt down people buying drugs but still seems stupid to trust.

drexlspivey 2y ago
If they run just the exit node they still can’t de-anonymize you right?
- system33- 2y ago
  Depends on the content of your traffic. If “deanonymize” strictly means perform a timing attack using info you have from the beginning and end of the circuit, then by definition you’re correct. But if you visit an identifying set of websites and/or ignore TLS errors or … they can still deanonymize you.
  - iluvcommunism 2y ago
    What role do TLS errors play in de-anonymizing onion traffic?
    - system33- 2y ago
      My comment is strictly about exit nodes which are not used as part of connecting to onion services. Ignoring TLS errors might mean you’re ignoring the fact your exit relay is MitM attacking you.
      - iluvcommunism 2y ago
        Thanks, I just wanted to be sure I wasn’t missing something.
midtake 2y ago
Monitoring exit nodes does not necessarily reveal hidden services, though. Edit: Never does, exit nodes are not part of the circuit, thanks to commenter below.
- system33- 2y ago
  Monitoring exits is completely irrelevant to onion services, in fact. Completely. Exits aren’t a part of the circuit. Ever.
system33- 2y ago
“The western governments run most of the exits” is one of those things everybody “knows” but rarely backs up. The list of all relays is public knowledge by design. There’s contact information attached to relays. The big operators are known individuals and organizations. They contribute. Interact. Which ones are actually the governments doing bad things against their citizens? It’s hard to tell? Then why do you make such claims? Relays that observably do bad things are removed from the network all the time. Are those ones the government? Tor seemingly has a reasonable handle on the situation if that’s the case. If the fed is doing correlation attacks, why would they run relays at all? “Just” tap the IXPs near major hubs of relays. Or heck, get data from the taps you already had. Silent and more widespread. Pushing people away from tor potentially makes it even easier to deanonymize them, depending on the adversary model assumed.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  Tor was literally developed by the intelligence community. I’m sure there are a variety of means to gather actionable intelligence from it, with or without the cooperation of the exit node volunteers. Beyond a principled stance re communications, I can’t think of a reason to use it. If you’re planning to resist some regime that controls telecom infrastructure, the fact that you’re using it is both uncommon and notable.
  - system33- 2y ago
    Tor was literally developed by the Naval Research Lab. Not a part of the IC. I know because I work there. AMA (edit: about tor. Because people say a lot about it without actually knowing much. But now I should put my phone down so… too late!) To protect our most sensitive communications and vulnerable communities , Tor usage should be normalized so it is common and not notable.
    - Nathanael_M 2y ago
      Unrelated to Tor, what was your favourite project to work on that you're allowed to talk about? That must be a fascinating job.
0xggus 2y ago
Please read the blog post:"It is important to note that Onion Services are only accessible from within the Tor network, which is why the discussion of exit nodes is irrelevant in this case."
LouisSayers 2y ago
You'd be surprised how much crime goes on in plain sight. There are literally people on Instagram making stories of themselves showing off their drugs and stacks of money. Given that a lot of law enforcement doesn't even bother with the low hanging crimes, the chance of them prosecuting anyone using Tor is extremely low unless you get big enough or go far enough to warrant the attention.
pc86 2y ago
This brings up a couple questions I've always had about Tor. I played around with it a bit maybe a decade ago and it seemed it was used for drugs, CSAM, and getting yourself honeypotted trying to buy illegal guns or murder-for-hire. I always assumed if you were doing things where your threat model included governments trying to kill you that Tor wouldn't be all that useful even if it was secure.

drexlspivey 2y ago

If they run just the exit node they still can’t de-anonymize you right?

system33- 2y ago
Depends on the content of your traffic. If “deanonymize” strictly means perform a timing attack using info you have from the beginning and end of the circuit, then by definition you’re correct. But if you visit an identifying set of websites and/or ignore TLS errors or … they can still deanonymize you.
- iluvcommunism 2y ago
  What role do TLS errors play in de-anonymizing onion traffic?
  - system33- 2y ago
    My comment is strictly about exit nodes which are not used as part of connecting to onion services. Ignoring TLS errors might mean you’re ignoring the fact your exit relay is MitM attacking you.
    - iluvcommunism 2y ago
      Thanks, I just wanted to be sure I wasn’t missing something.

midtake 2y ago

Monitoring exit nodes does not necessarily reveal hidden services, though. Edit: Never does, exit nodes are not part of the circuit, thanks to commenter below.

system33- 2y ago
Monitoring exits is completely irrelevant to onion services, in fact. Completely. Exits aren’t a part of the circuit. Ever.

system33- 2y ago

“The western governments run most of the exits” is one of those things everybody “knows” but rarely backs up. The list of all relays is public knowledge by design. There’s contact information attached to relays. The big operators are known individuals and organizations. They contribute. Interact. Which ones are actually the governments doing bad things against their citizens? It’s hard to tell? Then why do you make such claims? Relays that observably do bad things are removed from the network all the time. Are those ones the government? Tor seemingly has a reasonable handle on the situation if that’s the case. If the fed is doing correlation attacks, why would they run relays at all? “Just” tap the IXPs near major hubs of relays. Or heck, get data from the taps you already had. Silent and more widespread. Pushing people away from tor potentially makes it even easier to deanonymize them, depending on the adversary model assumed.

Spooky23 2y ago
Tor was literally developed by the intelligence community. I’m sure there are a variety of means to gather actionable intelligence from it, with or without the cooperation of the exit node volunteers. Beyond a principled stance re communications, I can’t think of a reason to use it. If you’re planning to resist some regime that controls telecom infrastructure, the fact that you’re using it is both uncommon and notable.
- system33- 2y ago
  Tor was literally developed by the Naval Research Lab. Not a part of the IC. I know because I work there. AMA (edit: about tor. Because people say a lot about it without actually knowing much. But now I should put my phone down so… too late!) To protect our most sensitive communications and vulnerable communities , Tor usage should be normalized so it is common and not notable.
  - Nathanael_M 2y ago
    Unrelated to Tor, what was your favourite project to work on that you're allowed to talk about? That must be a fascinating job.

0xggus 2y ago

Please read the blog post:"It is important to note that Onion Services are only accessible from within the Tor network, which is why the discussion of exit nodes is irrelevant in this case."

LouisSayers 2y ago

You'd be surprised how much crime goes on in plain sight. There are literally people on Instagram making stories of themselves showing off their drugs and stacks of money. Given that a lot of law enforcement doesn't even bother with the low hanging crimes, the chance of them prosecuting anyone using Tor is extremely low unless you get big enough or go far enough to warrant the attention.

pc86 2y ago

This brings up a couple questions I've always had about Tor. I played around with it a bit maybe a decade ago and it seemed it was used for drugs, CSAM, and getting yourself honeypotted trying to buy illegal guns or murder-for-hire. I always assumed if you were doing things where your threat model included governments trying to kill you that Tor wouldn't be all that useful even if it was secure.