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Sure, but the implication that US politicians are on board with Israel because of some perceived threat of danger to their lives is absurd. If Israel threatene

by borski 2y ago

Sure, but the implication that US politicians are on board with Israel because of some perceived threat of danger to their lives is absurd. If Israel threatened, even once, to attack the US, rest assured their US support would be gone in an instant. Surveillance is separate. We surveil allies all the time, and they surveil us. It’s not nice, but it’s par for the course.

throw310822 2y ago
> the implication that US politicians are on board with Israel because of some perceived threat of danger to their lives is absurd No, sorry if that's what it sounded like. No, my argument was a little more subtle: if these are the tricks Israel employs to deal blows to its enemies, imagine those it uses to ensure the vital support it needs. If it can plant literal explosive in its enemies electronics, do you think it refrains from hacking, wiretapping, manipulating and, if necessary, blackmailing those whose decisions count?
- borski 2y ago
  Ah, I see - thank you for the clarification! Israel undoubtedly surveils US citizens; but as a counterpoint, the US also absolutely surveils Israel. Surveillance is a thing countries do to enemies and allies; it's just rarely talked about. But there have been plenty of public instances of it in the past. Blackmail is less likely, since it's too easy for that to come out and an ally to have egg on its face, but using knowledge gained through surveillance to further their own gains? Absolutely.
  - throw310822 2y ago
    > Israel undoubtedly surveils US citizens; but as a counterpoint, the US also absolutely surveils Israel There is no symmetry whatsoever between Israel and the US. The US are a superpower, Israel is (supposedly) a small client state. The US have a vast political influence over the richest part of the world, Israel has almost none of its own. The US by surveilling Israel might saves themselves some embarrassment (doesn't really work, obviously); Israel by surveilling the US and possibly manipulating its politics manages to sway the world's most powerful nation to serve its own interests.
    - borski 2y ago
      You missed my point. Everyone surveils everyone else. There are no exceptions. Any country with the capabilities to surveil other countries does. We do it to every country we can, allies included. Allies do it to us. And everyone does it to enemies. That is my point; it has nothing to do with Israel or the US in particular. Specifically, Israel's intelligence apparatus is one of the main reasons they are such a useful partner to the US in the Middle East. It is far easier for us to deal with Israel, even now, than it is to deal with Iran or Pakistan or Qatar; but suffice it to say that every single country surveils every other country it can.

by borski 2y ago

throw310822 2y ago

> the implication that US politicians are on board with Israel because of some perceived threat of danger to their lives is absurd No, sorry if that's what it sounded like. No, my argument was a little more subtle: if these are the tricks Israel employs to deal blows to its enemies, imagine those it uses to ensure the vital support it needs. If it can plant literal explosive in its enemies electronics, do you think it refrains from hacking, wiretapping, manipulating and, if necessary, blackmailing those whose decisions count?

borski 2y ago
Ah, I see - thank you for the clarification! Israel undoubtedly surveils US citizens; but as a counterpoint, the US also absolutely surveils Israel. Surveillance is a thing countries do to enemies and allies; it's just rarely talked about. But there have been plenty of public instances of it in the past. Blackmail is less likely, since it's too easy for that to come out and an ally to have egg on its face, but using knowledge gained through surveillance to further their own gains? Absolutely.
- throw310822 2y ago
  > Israel undoubtedly surveils US citizens; but as a counterpoint, the US also absolutely surveils Israel There is no symmetry whatsoever between Israel and the US. The US are a superpower, Israel is (supposedly) a small client state. The US have a vast political influence over the richest part of the world, Israel has almost none of its own. The US by surveilling Israel might saves themselves some embarrassment (doesn't really work, obviously); Israel by surveilling the US and possibly manipulating its politics manages to sway the world's most powerful nation to serve its own interests.
  - borski 2y ago
    You missed my point. Everyone surveils everyone else. There are no exceptions. Any country with the capabilities to surveil other countries does. We do it to every country we can, allies included. Allies do it to us. And everyone does it to enemies. That is my point; it has nothing to do with Israel or the US in particular. Specifically, Israel's intelligence apparatus is one of the main reasons they are such a useful partner to the US in the Middle East. It is far easier for us to deal with Israel, even now, than it is to deal with Iran or Pakistan or Qatar; but suffice it to say that every single country surveils every other country it can.