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If I were a Hezbollah operative, I would be in a bomb shelter entirely naked for a few days… I'm not sure what electronics I'd be able to trust at this point.

by borski 2y ago

throw310822 2y ago
And if Israel can physically plant explosives in its enemies' electronic devices, can you imagine what it does to those whose support it needs, namely US politicians?
- borski 2y ago
  This is a strawman. US politicians are not at war with Israel, and do not use specifically distributed devices for military ops and communication against them. This has nothing at all do with politics.
  - throw310822 2y ago
    Continued US support is absolutely essential to provide Israel a licence to keep doing basically whatever it wants. Making sure that politicians keep supporting Israel is possibly even more important than delivering blows to enemies. Israel planted cellphone spying devices near the White House: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/12/israel-planted-spying-devices-near-white-house-says-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/12/israel-planted... No consequences whatsoever, why?
    - borski 2y ago
      Sure, but the implication that US politicians are on board with Israel because of some perceived threat of danger to their lives is absurd. If Israel threatened, even once, to attack the US, rest assured their US support would be gone in an instant. Surveillance is separate. We surveil allies all the time, and they surveil us. It’s not nice, but it’s par for the course.
      - throw310822 2y ago
        > the implication that US politicians are on board with Israel because of some perceived threat of danger to their lives is absurd No, sorry if that's what it sounded like. No, my argument was a little more subtle: if these are the tricks Israel employs to deal blows to its enemies, imagine those it uses to ensure the vital support it needs. If it can plant literal explosive in its enemies electronics, do you think it refrains from hacking, wiretapping, manipulating and, if necessary, blackmailing those whose decisions count?
        borski 2y ago
        Ah, I see - thank you for the clarification! Israel undoubtedly surveils US citizens; but as a counterpoint, the US also absolutely surveils Israel. Surveillance is a thing countries do to enemies and allies; it's just rarely talked about. But there have been plenty of public instances of it in the past. Blackmail is less likely, since it's too easy for that to come out and an ally to have egg on its face, but using knowledge gained through surveillance to further their own gains? Absolutely.
        throw310822 2y ago
        > Israel undoubtedly surveils US citizens; but as a counterpoint, the US also absolutely surveils Israel There is no symmetry whatsoever between Israel and the US. The US are a superpower, Israel is (supposedly) a small client state. The US have a vast political influence over the richest part of the world, Israel has almost none of its own. The US by surveilling Israel might saves themselves some embarrassment (doesn't really work, obviously); Israel by surveilling the US and possibly manipulating its politics manages to sway the world's most powerful nation to serve its own interests.
        borski 2y ago
        You missed my point. Everyone surveils everyone else. There are no exceptions. Any country with the capabilities to surveil other countries does. We do it to every country we can, allies included. Allies do it to us. And everyone does it to enemies. That is my point; it has nothing to do with Israel or the US in particular. Specifically, Israel's intelligence apparatus is one of the main reasons they are such a useful partner to the US in the Middle East. It is far easier for us to deal with Israel, even now, than it is to deal with Iran or Pakistan or Qatar; but suffice it to say that every single country surveils every other country it can.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Continued US support is absolutely essential to provide Israel a licence to keep doing basically whatever it wants We give it latitude it wouldn't otherwise have. But its military and MI complex are among the largest in the world. It could prosecute its wars for quite some time without our support. (It's also ambiguous whether they couldn't find a friend in China or the Gulf.)
      - za3faran 2y ago
        Is that why the US sent tens of billions of dollars just in the past year to them?
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Is that why the US sent tens of billions of dollars just in the past year to them? Not sure what "that" you're referring to, but broadly, yes. Israel is an ally about whom most Americans have a favourable view [1]. (It's a non-issue for most likely voters [2]. Foreign policy pretty much always is.) Not sending arms would mean contemplating, in increasing order of severity: Israel losing the war and confidence in America; Israel defecting to another benefactor; and Israel ceasing to exist because America pulled support. These are problems for the U.S. geostrategically, given it weakens our position in the Middle East but also with allies in Asia. (An ally who abandons you halfway through a war is worse than useless.) The latter two would probably tank an administration. If you're saying that our volume of aid is evidence Israel needs them, note that Israel is still--by and large--using precision weapons. If we cut them off from those they'd do what Russia has been doing. [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/611375/americans-views-israel-palestinian-authority-down.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/611375/americans-views-israel-p... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/09/09/issues-and-the-2024-election/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/09/09/issues-and-t...
        za3faran 2y ago
        That doesn't justify any inhumane behavior we see happening.
  - za3faran 2y ago
    USS Liberty ring a bell?
    - borski 2y ago
      The wartime friendly fire error from over 50 years ago? I’m not into believing in conspiracies that last that long.
      - za3faran 2y ago
        The levon affair ring a bell?
sys_64738 2y ago
Pacemakers?

If I were a Hezbollah operative, I would be in a bomb shelter entirely naked for a few days… I'm not sure what electronics I'd be able to trust at this point.

by borski 2y ago

If I were a Hezbollah operative, I would be in a bomb shelter entirely naked for a few days… I'm not sure what electronics I'd be able to trust at this point.

throw310822 2y ago

And if Israel can physically plant explosives in its enemies' electronic devices, can you imagine what it does to those whose support it needs, namely US politicians?

borski 2y ago
This is a strawman. US politicians are not at war with Israel, and do not use specifically distributed devices for military ops and communication against them. This has nothing at all do with politics.
- throw310822 2y ago
  Continued US support is absolutely essential to provide Israel a licence to keep doing basically whatever it wants. Making sure that politicians keep supporting Israel is possibly even more important than delivering blows to enemies. Israel planted cellphone spying devices near the White House: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/12/israel-planted-spying-devices-near-white-house-says-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/12/israel-planted... No consequences whatsoever, why?
  - borski 2y ago
    Sure, but the implication that US politicians are on board with Israel because of some perceived threat of danger to their lives is absurd. If Israel threatened, even once, to attack the US, rest assured their US support would be gone in an instant. Surveillance is separate. We surveil allies all the time, and they surveil us. It’s not nice, but it’s par for the course.
    - throw310822 2y ago
      > the implication that US politicians are on board with Israel because of some perceived threat of danger to their lives is absurd No, sorry if that's what it sounded like. No, my argument was a little more subtle: if these are the tricks Israel employs to deal blows to its enemies, imagine those it uses to ensure the vital support it needs. If it can plant literal explosive in its enemies electronics, do you think it refrains from hacking, wiretapping, manipulating and, if necessary, blackmailing those whose decisions count?
      - borski 2y ago
        Ah, I see - thank you for the clarification! Israel undoubtedly surveils US citizens; but as a counterpoint, the US also absolutely surveils Israel. Surveillance is a thing countries do to enemies and allies; it's just rarely talked about. But there have been plenty of public instances of it in the past. Blackmail is less likely, since it's too easy for that to come out and an ally to have egg on its face, but using knowledge gained through surveillance to further their own gains? Absolutely.
        throw310822 2y ago
        > Israel undoubtedly surveils US citizens; but as a counterpoint, the US also absolutely surveils Israel There is no symmetry whatsoever between Israel and the US. The US are a superpower, Israel is (supposedly) a small client state. The US have a vast political influence over the richest part of the world, Israel has almost none of its own. The US by surveilling Israel might saves themselves some embarrassment (doesn't really work, obviously); Israel by surveilling the US and possibly manipulating its politics manages to sway the world's most powerful nation to serve its own interests.
        borski 2y ago
        You missed my point. Everyone surveils everyone else. There are no exceptions. Any country with the capabilities to surveil other countries does. We do it to every country we can, allies included. Allies do it to us. And everyone does it to enemies. That is my point; it has nothing to do with Israel or the US in particular. Specifically, Israel's intelligence apparatus is one of the main reasons they are such a useful partner to the US in the Middle East. It is far easier for us to deal with Israel, even now, than it is to deal with Iran or Pakistan or Qatar; but suffice it to say that every single country surveils every other country it can.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Continued US support is absolutely essential to provide Israel a licence to keep doing basically whatever it wants We give it latitude it wouldn't otherwise have. But its military and MI complex are among the largest in the world. It could prosecute its wars for quite some time without our support. (It's also ambiguous whether they couldn't find a friend in China or the Gulf.)
    - za3faran 2y ago
      Is that why the US sent tens of billions of dollars just in the past year to them?
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Is that why the US sent tens of billions of dollars just in the past year to them? Not sure what "that" you're referring to, but broadly, yes. Israel is an ally about whom most Americans have a favourable view [1]. (It's a non-issue for most likely voters [2]. Foreign policy pretty much always is.) Not sending arms would mean contemplating, in increasing order of severity: Israel losing the war and confidence in America; Israel defecting to another benefactor; and Israel ceasing to exist because America pulled support. These are problems for the U.S. geostrategically, given it weakens our position in the Middle East but also with allies in Asia. (An ally who abandons you halfway through a war is worse than useless.) The latter two would probably tank an administration. If you're saying that our volume of aid is evidence Israel needs them, note that Israel is still--by and large--using precision weapons. If we cut them off from those they'd do what Russia has been doing. [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/611375/americans-views-israel-palestinian-authority-down.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/611375/americans-views-israel-p... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/09/09/issues-and-the-2024-election/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/09/09/issues-and-t...
        za3faran 2y ago
        That doesn't justify any inhumane behavior we see happening.
- za3faran 2y ago
  USS Liberty ring a bell?
  - borski 2y ago
    The wartime friendly fire error from over 50 years ago? I’m not into believing in conspiracies that last that long.
    - za3faran 2y ago
      The levon affair ring a bell?

sys_64738 2y ago

Pacemakers?