5 ms·

Nearly everyone is replaceable. There is some cost, some transition pain, but everyone is replaceable. Irreplaceable employees is a management failure. This is

Nearly everyone is replaceable. There is some cost, some transition pain, but everyone is replaceable. Irreplaceable employees is a management failure. This is totally going to drive out employees. But I do wonder if we have data on who is actually quitting over RTO. Is it actually their top-performing employees? This move absolutely will drive out some of their best talent… but the job market isn’t great. Genuinely, are there many desirable workplaces left that are remote? Amazon pays extremely well, I can’t think of many organizations that can afford to compete.

fnfjfk 2y ago
Facebook has full time remote, Airbnb too.
- disgruntledphd2 2y ago
  Facebook only if you don't care about being promoted, from a pretty senior friend of mine who works there.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    I don’t care about getting promoted. Sign me up!
    - OptionOfT 2y ago
      I want to grow as a Software Engineer. And for some reason companies conflate growing as a Software Engineer with becoming a manager.
turnsout 2y ago
> Genuinely, are there many desirable workplaces left that are remote? Are you serious? Try the entire tech industry except Amazon and Apple.
- booleandilemma 2y ago
  Is Amazon even desirable to work for? (I'm not even including their recent RTO policy)
  - algaeselect 2y ago
    Everyone in the industry knows Amazon has very poor work life balance (and a brutal on call load). It's even in that letter you get from Jeff Bezos when you apply: "You can work smart, hard, or long. At Amazon you don't get to pick just two." If you are fresh out of college, get a couple years in to get it on your resume. For anyone else, if you are in the Seattle area I don't see why you wouldn't just work for Microsoft. Microsoft does pay the worst out of all the big tech companies (until you get to L67+), but the work life balance is so much better, and allows fully remote.
- Root_Denied 2y ago
  Not even close, a lot of places are hybrid and there's a valid concern that we'll see more tech companies (large and small) follow in Amazon's lead just because Amazon did it first. Currently trying to leave Amazon and it's been a slog to even get an interview for anything fully remote despite a decade of experience.
- angoragoats 2y ago
  While I agree with the "are you serious?" part, there are plenty of other companies that are backtracking on remote work, including quite a few small and/or early-stage startups that I see posting in the monthly "Who's Hiring" threads here on HN. I know of no studies that show that RTO mandates improve any measurable statistic for a company, and remote work has done wonders for my commute and well-being, so I will no longer consider working for a company who does not have a majority of its employees working remotely. I'm a staff engineer with a couple decades of experience. My current company is 100% remote and it's lovely.
calebio 2y ago
Stripe
joshstrange 2y ago
> Is it actually their top-performing employees? People who are top-performing often have a lot more choice and flexibility, taking that away isn't going to sit well. I'm sure there will top-performers that prefer the office and they will happily go back but the others? They will start looking for new jobs. > This move absolutely will drive out some of their best talent… but the job market isn’t great I hear this a lot and I've interviewed a number of people who said as much. Here's the thing, the people that mentioned the market wasn't good were people that we didn't hire. Not because they mentioned the market wasn't good but because they didn't pass our tests. So I'm skeptical of how much this holds true when we are talking about "top performers". > Genuinely, are there many desirable workplaces left that are remote? This is a silly statement. You must be in a bubble to think this. Money is not the only driving factor for people.
- teachrdan 2y ago
  If the employee is truly that valuable, Amazon will make an exception for them. The proles will still have to come in or get fired.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    You're assuming that the employee wants that exception made and doesn't see the writing on the wall.
    - ToxicMegacolon 2y ago
      If I were that employee, I'd take the exception, quiet quit and start looking for a better job elsewhere.
- ohthatsnotright 2y ago
  > but because they didn't pass our tests I'd love to see what your tests consist of.
  - joshstrange 2y ago
Root_Denied 2y ago
Amazon isn't really a growth company anymore, they don't need the highest talent individuals to maintain market dominance. To that end they probably don't care about the "best" talent leaving for other places anyway.
atherton33 2y ago
> This move absolutely will drive out some of their best talent IMHO, from my personal insider experience, this is actually the goal in some places. Best talent is often not the most cost effective talent, especially in parts of the business where the company has switched from innovating to maintaining.
BobaFloutist 2y ago
How about this: Anyone is replaceable. Everyone is certainly not replaceable, at least not without significant pain. It's not about the one guy that's the only guy that knows how to do something. It's about how if you decimate your workforce, cracks may very well start to appear.
- kkfx 2y ago
  And that's precisely why I'm look for the moment people realize the power of being united and say "from now ANY company mandating RTO will found next to zero workers interesting in working for them"...
eikenberry 2y ago
> Nearly everyone is replaceable. At scale. > Genuinely, are there many desirable workplaces left that are remote? Smaller companies don't have this mindset and are great places to work. To them you are a person and have value unique to you, what you know and what you can provide. Everyone being a replaceable cog is an enterprise mindset that is avoidable as long as you don't require top tier pay. And small to mid-sized companies have been some of the biggest adopters of remote work and it has stuck there.
Have7878forever 2y ago
Replaceable which screwed up the company and replaceable and continue same productivity are 2 different thing. The former is real and happened for millenia, the later only exist in CEO's and Wallstreet mind. When I buy stock I look out for changes to their staff (some engineers and mid managers are worth keep track of to indicate companies growth projection). Warren also famously did so. You can investigate Intel and Boeing staff movements over the years...I can guarantee you 300% their talented staff left and hence gameover for them.

fnfjfk 2y ago

Facebook has full time remote, Airbnb too.

disgruntledphd2 2y ago
Facebook only if you don't care about being promoted, from a pretty senior friend of mine who works there.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  I don’t care about getting promoted. Sign me up!
  - OptionOfT 2y ago
    I want to grow as a Software Engineer. And for some reason companies conflate growing as a Software Engineer with becoming a manager.

turnsout 2y ago

> Genuinely, are there many desirable workplaces left that are remote? Are you serious? Try the entire tech industry except Amazon and Apple.

booleandilemma 2y ago
Is Amazon even desirable to work for? (I'm not even including their recent RTO policy)
- algaeselect 2y ago
  Everyone in the industry knows Amazon has very poor work life balance (and a brutal on call load). It's even in that letter you get from Jeff Bezos when you apply: "You can work smart, hard, or long. At Amazon you don't get to pick just two." If you are fresh out of college, get a couple years in to get it on your resume. For anyone else, if you are in the Seattle area I don't see why you wouldn't just work for Microsoft. Microsoft does pay the worst out of all the big tech companies (until you get to L67+), but the work life balance is so much better, and allows fully remote.
Root_Denied 2y ago
Not even close, a lot of places are hybrid and there's a valid concern that we'll see more tech companies (large and small) follow in Amazon's lead just because Amazon did it first. Currently trying to leave Amazon and it's been a slog to even get an interview for anything fully remote despite a decade of experience.
angoragoats 2y ago
While I agree with the "are you serious?" part, there are plenty of other companies that are backtracking on remote work, including quite a few small and/or early-stage startups that I see posting in the monthly "Who's Hiring" threads here on HN. I know of no studies that show that RTO mandates improve any measurable statistic for a company, and remote work has done wonders for my commute and well-being, so I will no longer consider working for a company who does not have a majority of its employees working remotely. I'm a staff engineer with a couple decades of experience. My current company is 100% remote and it's lovely.

calebio 2y ago

Stripe

joshstrange 2y ago

> Is it actually their top-performing employees? People who are top-performing often have a lot more choice and flexibility, taking that away isn't going to sit well. I'm sure there will top-performers that prefer the office and they will happily go back but the others? They will start looking for new jobs. > This move absolutely will drive out some of their best talent… but the job market isn’t great I hear this a lot and I've interviewed a number of people who said as much. Here's the thing, the people that mentioned the market wasn't good were people that we didn't hire. Not because they mentioned the market wasn't good but because they didn't pass our tests. So I'm skeptical of how much this holds true when we are talking about "top performers". > Genuinely, are there many desirable workplaces left that are remote? This is a silly statement. You must be in a bubble to think this. Money is not the only driving factor for people.

teachrdan 2y ago
If the employee is truly that valuable, Amazon will make an exception for them. The proles will still have to come in or get fired.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  You're assuming that the employee wants that exception made and doesn't see the writing on the wall.
  - ToxicMegacolon 2y ago
    If I were that employee, I'd take the exception, quiet quit and start looking for a better job elsewhere.
ohthatsnotright 2y ago
> but because they didn't pass our tests I'd love to see what your tests consist of.
- joshstrange 2y ago

Root_Denied 2y ago

Amazon isn't really a growth company anymore, they don't need the highest talent individuals to maintain market dominance. To that end they probably don't care about the "best" talent leaving for other places anyway.

atherton33 2y ago

> This move absolutely will drive out some of their best talent IMHO, from my personal insider experience, this is actually the goal in some places. Best talent is often not the most cost effective talent, especially in parts of the business where the company has switched from innovating to maintaining.

BobaFloutist 2y ago

How about this: Anyone is replaceable. Everyone is certainly not replaceable, at least not without significant pain. It's not about the one guy that's the only guy that knows how to do something. It's about how if you decimate your workforce, cracks may very well start to appear.

kkfx 2y ago
And that's precisely why I'm look for the moment people realize the power of being united and say "from now ANY company mandating RTO will found next to zero workers interesting in working for them"...

eikenberry 2y ago

> Nearly everyone is replaceable. At scale. > Genuinely, are there many desirable workplaces left that are remote? Smaller companies don't have this mindset and are great places to work. To them you are a person and have value unique to you, what you know and what you can provide. Everyone being a replaceable cog is an enterprise mindset that is avoidable as long as you don't require top tier pay. And small to mid-sized companies have been some of the biggest adopters of remote work and it has stuck there.

Have7878forever 2y ago

Replaceable which screwed up the company and replaceable and continue same productivity are 2 different thing. The former is real and happened for millenia, the later only exist in CEO's and Wallstreet mind. When I buy stock I look out for changes to their staff (some engineers and mid managers are worth keep track of to indicate companies growth projection). Warren also famously did so. You can investigate Intel and Boeing staff movements over the years...I can guarantee you 300% their talented staff left and hence gameover for them.