5 ms·

> And in that some people have autism don't view it as something that needs to be cured. Please, don't conflate these people with the other end of the spectrum

> And in that some people have autism don't view it as something that needs to be cured. Please, don't conflate these people with the other end of the spectrum, where those suffering are absolutely unable to live any kind of life at all. I have a friend who has an autistic son. The autism makes him a 5-year old hyperactive child in a 20-year old body. He needs help.

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago
Your language hints at something that I've always wondered about: > with the other end of the spectrum I had always figured that the use of "spectrum" here implied that we're all on it, and that some of us are on it in more or less problematic places. Is that not so? Are there people who are not on said spectrum?
- cogman10 2y ago
  It's a cluster of symptoms that is quiet wide, but no not everyone is on the spectrum. For example, some individuals have high sensitivity to sensory input. On the low end of the spectrum that can mean that some cloths (like pleated cloth) can't be worn because it feels too "weird". On the other end, it can be as extreme as not being able to tolerate almost any food as you can only tolerate some textures and tastes in your mouth. Definitely with the latest DSM, a lot more people are viewed as having ASD because it widened the definition. Primarily because these symptoms tend to occur together and treatments are basically the same despite the cluster of symptoms.
- ackfoobar 2y ago
  I'm also annoyed at the everyday usages of the word "spectrum". But here I guess you can understand "autism spectrum" as a part of the whole personality spectrum, similar to how the "visible spectrum" is a part of the EM wave spectrum.
- mccrory 2y ago
  My understanding is that it is a large collection of traits and that a person might have no traits or possibly even 1 or 2 that are very minor and NOT be on the spectrum. Someone else might have 1 severe trait and be on the spectrum and someone else might need 5 traits to be diagnosed as on the spectrum. Don’t think of it as a continuous spectrum but more of a collection of traits that are of little or no severity to high severity where as was mentioned before, the person has little or no quality of life.
- detourdog 2y ago
  There is definitely A school of thought that every personality trait is within in ourselves. Various factors can lead people to move along a spectrum. A whole self represents a balancing of the spectrums. Some end up with a propensity to dwell at certain points along the spectrum. This becomes one’s personality. Personality disorders happen when one is frustrated by their perceptions and a consensus reaction. This is where there are boundaries and establishing healthy boundaries is considered a way to a whole self. If someone finds themselves struggling with multiple human interactions they need to evaluate why the interactions aren’t working. The final thought is that a mature person can evaluate what went wrong and figure out on their own or with healthy communication with others. An immature person develops coping mechanisms such as avoidant and hopes for the best in the future.
- gspencley 2y ago
  > Are there people who are not on said spectrum? Yes. Autism spectrum disorder (ASD for short) is a neurodevelopment disorder. I'm quoting verbatim from Wikipedia: "characterized by symptoms of deficient reciprocal social communication and the presence of restricted, repetitive, and inflexible patterns of behavior. Autism generally affects a person's ability to understand and connect with others, as well as their adaptability to everyday situations, with its severity and support needs varying widely across the spectrum." Within this spectrum you have "high functioning" individuals who are capable of living self-sufficient, productive lives on their own (individuals with what we used to describe as having asperger's syndrom) and on the other end of it you have individuals who will always need constant supervision because they can't communicate effectively enough to hold a job, nor can they be trusted around kitchen appliances. Common characteristics of ASD are: - Regular difficulties in social interaction or communication (note the word "regular", everyone struggles from time to time. Someone with ASD experiences this permanently) - Restricted or repetitive behaviours (examples: not using hand gestures when speaking, rocking motions etc.) - Resistance to disruptions in routine (many people don't like routine disruptions, someone with ASD usually finds this to be crippling) - Restricted interests (getting obsessive about hobbies but also really not giving a shit about things that most other people care about, like small talk or even major life events in the lives of loved ones ... like I couldn't give the slightest crap that my sisters got married or that I'm an uncle, and I like my sisters and their kids) - Not enjoying human touch. I don't like being hugged or kissed, even by my wife or children. Even as a 42 year old adult, I hold my breath when I'm in the company of strangers because I find the idea of inhaling the air that they just exhaled to be gross. There are more. But someone who is "on the spectrum" will exhibit many of these characteristics and exhibit them permanently throughout their lives. Whereas for "neurotypical" people, these may be fleeting or they may experience one or two in isolation... whereas ASD is a prolongued pattern of many of these characteristics together.
  - agumonkey 2y ago
    serious question: anybody knows if ASD has been linked to abstract neurobiological basis of sexuality (not the biomechanical processes behind intercourse, i'm trying to describe the kind of deep emotional communication that lies preempting the physicalness).
- kayodelycaon 2y ago
  Bipolar disorder is a spectrum in terms of severity. At the extreme end people can’t care for themselves. It’s not uncommon for people to need to be hospitalized. However, only 2% of the US population is on the bipolar spectrum.
- ghostpepper 2y ago
  This site helped illuminate the use of the word 'spectrum' for me:" https://neuroclastic.com/its-a-spectrum-doesnt-mean-what-you-think/ https://neuroclastic.com/its-a-spectrum-doesnt-mean-what-you... > But when people talk about autism they talk as if it were a gradient, not a spectrum at all.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    That helps a little, but it seems like maybe "spectrum" was a poor choice at the outset. > All autistic people are affected in one way or another in most or all of these boxes – a rainbow of traits. All visible light is comprised of at least one of its spectra. That, to me, is the fundamental thing about spectrums. If being on it means that you embody most or all spectra, you're really in a different mode of thinking altogether. Better would be to just admit that it's a bit of a catch-all for traits that tend to be found together.
- SkyBelow 2y ago
  I think most things exist on a spectrum, though it is better modeled by a much higher order feature space and the spectrums we talk about day to day are stereotypes made to easily explain this, because a 1d scale going from 'no x at all' to 'so much x they can't function day to day' is much easier than a 3000d space with different factors that barely map to common everyday concepts. Any attempt to diagnose mental disorders is an attempt to create simple classifications that don't really exist. Much like how species don't exist. Pick yourself and any animal out there. Now imagine a chain of you holding hands with your mother who holds hands with her mother, going all the way back to a single common ancestor. Many species exist along these chains, but these are all fictional groups we use to classify the N number of creatures, with no guaranteed way to map all N to their species. It isn't like atoms, where any atom, even theoretical ones which might one day be created in a lab, can be directly mapped to a single element (maybe as an isotope, but still belonging to that element). It has been fun watching AI discussions in feature space start to give more rigor to these ideas, as I've questioned them going back to when I first learned about the Kinsey scale and asked "why does it go from 1 to 7 as natural numbers instead of from 0 to 1 with any possible real number, and why only 2 dimensions instead of many more". Or was it 0 to 6. I've done forgot the details.
fwip 2y ago
> unable to live any kind of life at all. This kind of language is awfully eugenics-adjacent, and part of why autistic people resent having neurotypical people tell them how they should feel about it. If he's "not living any kind of life", it's a short hop to saying it would be better if he died, or was never born. Even if he's a "5-year old child," even children lead meaningful lives.
- spencerchubb 2y ago
  Who said anything about eugenics or killing autistic people? The comment chain is discussing hypothetical cures for autism
  - fwip 2y ago
    I did. Saying that a person is not living a life worth living is a short, short hop from saying "well, why are we spending all these resources to keep them alive?" Further up the chain, somebody also mentioned detecting autism pre-birth. While this could lead to earlier intervention for autistic children, it also would lead to an increase in selective abortion of autistic fetuses, the same as any other condition we screen for. Which is a simple form of eugenics.
    - throwaway48540 2y ago
      It's really not a short hop at all, it's a total opposite of the whole concept of "we're looking for ways to help the people with ASD".
      - fwip 2y ago
        I'm not trying to attack you or say you wish ill for him. I'm trying to explain how your rhetoric (not your goals!) is philosophically aligned with people who don't want autistic people to exist.
- throwaway48540 2y ago
  Eh, what? I'm suggesting he needs help.

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago

Your language hints at something that I've always wondered about: > with the other end of the spectrum I had always figured that the use of "spectrum" here implied that we're all on it, and that some of us are on it in more or less problematic places. Is that not so? Are there people who are not on said spectrum?

cogman10 2y ago
It's a cluster of symptoms that is quiet wide, but no not everyone is on the spectrum. For example, some individuals have high sensitivity to sensory input. On the low end of the spectrum that can mean that some cloths (like pleated cloth) can't be worn because it feels too "weird". On the other end, it can be as extreme as not being able to tolerate almost any food as you can only tolerate some textures and tastes in your mouth. Definitely with the latest DSM, a lot more people are viewed as having ASD because it widened the definition. Primarily because these symptoms tend to occur together and treatments are basically the same despite the cluster of symptoms.
ackfoobar 2y ago
I'm also annoyed at the everyday usages of the word "spectrum". But here I guess you can understand "autism spectrum" as a part of the whole personality spectrum, similar to how the "visible spectrum" is a part of the EM wave spectrum.
mccrory 2y ago
My understanding is that it is a large collection of traits and that a person might have no traits or possibly even 1 or 2 that are very minor and NOT be on the spectrum. Someone else might have 1 severe trait and be on the spectrum and someone else might need 5 traits to be diagnosed as on the spectrum. Don’t think of it as a continuous spectrum but more of a collection of traits that are of little or no severity to high severity where as was mentioned before, the person has little or no quality of life.
detourdog 2y ago
There is definitely A school of thought that every personality trait is within in ourselves. Various factors can lead people to move along a spectrum. A whole self represents a balancing of the spectrums. Some end up with a propensity to dwell at certain points along the spectrum. This becomes one’s personality. Personality disorders happen when one is frustrated by their perceptions and a consensus reaction. This is where there are boundaries and establishing healthy boundaries is considered a way to a whole self. If someone finds themselves struggling with multiple human interactions they need to evaluate why the interactions aren’t working. The final thought is that a mature person can evaluate what went wrong and figure out on their own or with healthy communication with others. An immature person develops coping mechanisms such as avoidant and hopes for the best in the future.
gspencley 2y ago
> Are there people who are not on said spectrum? Yes. Autism spectrum disorder (ASD for short) is a neurodevelopment disorder. I'm quoting verbatim from Wikipedia: "characterized by symptoms of deficient reciprocal social communication and the presence of restricted, repetitive, and inflexible patterns of behavior. Autism generally affects a person's ability to understand and connect with others, as well as their adaptability to everyday situations, with its severity and support needs varying widely across the spectrum." Within this spectrum you have "high functioning" individuals who are capable of living self-sufficient, productive lives on their own (individuals with what we used to describe as having asperger's syndrom) and on the other end of it you have individuals who will always need constant supervision because they can't communicate effectively enough to hold a job, nor can they be trusted around kitchen appliances. Common characteristics of ASD are: - Regular difficulties in social interaction or communication (note the word "regular", everyone struggles from time to time. Someone with ASD experiences this permanently) - Restricted or repetitive behaviours (examples: not using hand gestures when speaking, rocking motions etc.) - Resistance to disruptions in routine (many people don't like routine disruptions, someone with ASD usually finds this to be crippling) - Restricted interests (getting obsessive about hobbies but also really not giving a shit about things that most other people care about, like small talk or even major life events in the lives of loved ones ... like I couldn't give the slightest crap that my sisters got married or that I'm an uncle, and I like my sisters and their kids) - Not enjoying human touch. I don't like being hugged or kissed, even by my wife or children. Even as a 42 year old adult, I hold my breath when I'm in the company of strangers because I find the idea of inhaling the air that they just exhaled to be gross. There are more. But someone who is "on the spectrum" will exhibit many of these characteristics and exhibit them permanently throughout their lives. Whereas for "neurotypical" people, these may be fleeting or they may experience one or two in isolation... whereas ASD is a prolongued pattern of many of these characteristics together.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  serious question: anybody knows if ASD has been linked to abstract neurobiological basis of sexuality (not the biomechanical processes behind intercourse, i'm trying to describe the kind of deep emotional communication that lies preempting the physicalness).
kayodelycaon 2y ago
Bipolar disorder is a spectrum in terms of severity. At the extreme end people can’t care for themselves. It’s not uncommon for people to need to be hospitalized. However, only 2% of the US population is on the bipolar spectrum.
ghostpepper 2y ago
This site helped illuminate the use of the word 'spectrum' for me:" https://neuroclastic.com/its-a-spectrum-doesnt-mean-what-you-think/ https://neuroclastic.com/its-a-spectrum-doesnt-mean-what-you... > But when people talk about autism they talk as if it were a gradient, not a spectrum at all.
- __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
  That helps a little, but it seems like maybe "spectrum" was a poor choice at the outset. > All autistic people are affected in one way or another in most or all of these boxes – a rainbow of traits. All visible light is comprised of at least one of its spectra. That, to me, is the fundamental thing about spectrums. If being on it means that you embody most or all spectra, you're really in a different mode of thinking altogether. Better would be to just admit that it's a bit of a catch-all for traits that tend to be found together.
SkyBelow 2y ago
I think most things exist on a spectrum, though it is better modeled by a much higher order feature space and the spectrums we talk about day to day are stereotypes made to easily explain this, because a 1d scale going from 'no x at all' to 'so much x they can't function day to day' is much easier than a 3000d space with different factors that barely map to common everyday concepts. Any attempt to diagnose mental disorders is an attempt to create simple classifications that don't really exist. Much like how species don't exist. Pick yourself and any animal out there. Now imagine a chain of you holding hands with your mother who holds hands with her mother, going all the way back to a single common ancestor. Many species exist along these chains, but these are all fictional groups we use to classify the N number of creatures, with no guaranteed way to map all N to their species. It isn't like atoms, where any atom, even theoretical ones which might one day be created in a lab, can be directly mapped to a single element (maybe as an isotope, but still belonging to that element). It has been fun watching AI discussions in feature space start to give more rigor to these ideas, as I've questioned them going back to when I first learned about the Kinsey scale and asked "why does it go from 1 to 7 as natural numbers instead of from 0 to 1 with any possible real number, and why only 2 dimensions instead of many more". Or was it 0 to 6. I've done forgot the details.

fwip 2y ago

> unable to live any kind of life at all. This kind of language is awfully eugenics-adjacent, and part of why autistic people resent having neurotypical people tell them how they should feel about it. If he's "not living any kind of life", it's a short hop to saying it would be better if he died, or was never born. Even if he's a "5-year old child," even children lead meaningful lives.

spencerchubb 2y ago
Who said anything about eugenics or killing autistic people? The comment chain is discussing hypothetical cures for autism
- fwip 2y ago
  I did. Saying that a person is not living a life worth living is a short, short hop from saying "well, why are we spending all these resources to keep them alive?" Further up the chain, somebody also mentioned detecting autism pre-birth. While this could lead to earlier intervention for autistic children, it also would lead to an increase in selective abortion of autistic fetuses, the same as any other condition we screen for. Which is a simple form of eugenics.
  - throwaway48540 2y ago
    It's really not a short hop at all, it's a total opposite of the whole concept of "we're looking for ways to help the people with ASD".
    - fwip 2y ago
      I'm not trying to attack you or say you wish ill for him. I'm trying to explain how your rhetoric (not your goals!) is philosophically aligned with people who don't want autistic people to exist.
throwaway48540 2y ago
Eh, what? I'm suggesting he needs help.