6 ms·

Leaked internal documents from a Kremlin-controlled propaganda center

108 points by Anon84 2y ago

jeffbee 2y ago
Where can I see the 100s of leaked memes?
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  Seconded. "This list of specific things are Russian lies" would be a useful data point. We could clean up our own internal mental databases somewhat, and we could adjust our priors as to which information sources were telling it straight.
- rasz 2y ago
  Try Musk tweets. He directly posted at least one, the "When it's been 5 minutes and you haven't spread Russian propaganda" https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12589987/Perhaps-really-agent-Russian-state-TV-celebrates-Elon-Musk-Elon-Muscovite-posted-Ukraine-War-meme-mocking-Zelensky.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12589987/Perhaps-re...
  - rasz 2y ago
    uh, rather 'When it's been 5 minutes and you haven't asked for a billion dollars in aid'.
- hjk2 2y ago
  Where can I watch the video mentioned (or just fansied by the author) in the first paragraph?
- VincentEvans 2y ago
  Some here: https://www.justice.gov/d9/2024-09/doppelganger_affidavit_9.4.24.pdf https://www.justice.gov/d9/2024-09/doppelganger_affidavit_9....
  - qingcharles 2y ago
    yikes.. "Project goals: At present, the situation in the state of Israel seems very favorable for launching a major project aimed at influencing public opinion. The goal of such influence is to rip Israel out of the general Western anti-Russian agenda and to create a sustainable public opinion which would deem neo-Nazism and dictatorship in Ukraine, rendering aid to neo Nazis, and, therefore, the escalation of the conflict by the West and helping anti-Russian political emigration unacceptable. Under current circumstances, these goals could be achieved in a relatively short term, relying on forces that in fact exist within the country as well as in the Jewish diaspora in the United States. Based on this, the key indicator of the effectiveness of the project will be an increase in the number of Israeli citizens supporting Russia in the fight against Nazism."
    - protomolecule 2y ago
      Doesn't seem to be that hard a goal. "Israel and Poland, which have clashed repeatedly in recent years over differing interpretations of the history of the Second World War, came together on Thursday to issue a rare joint condemnation of Ukraine over its efforts to rehabilitate nationalists who collaborated with the Nazis. The criticism came one day after Ukrainians marked the 111th birthday of Stepan Bandera, the wartime leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), a violently anti-Semitic organization that collaborated with the Nazis. Among Holocaust historians, the consensus is that the OUN and its military offshoot, known as the UPA, were responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews and up to 100,000 Poles during the war (estimates vary). In a joint letter to civic leaders in Lviv and Kyiv, Israeli ambassador Joel Lion and his Polish counterpart, Bartosz Cichocki, expressed concern regarding efforts to honor Bandera and Andryi Melnyk, the head of a competing faction of the OUN. In Kyiv on Wednesday, local officials raised a giant banner with Bandera’s picture over the city administration building, prompting anger from Jewish activists. That came just over a week after the Lviv Oblast Council approved funding for a 2020 celebration in honor of Melnyk. “Remembering our innocent brothers and sisters murdered in the occupied territories of Poland 1935-1945, which now constitute a part of Ukraine, we the Ambassadors of Poland and Israel believe, that celebrating these individuals is an insult,” Lion and Cichocki wrote. “Glorification of those who promoted actively the ethnic cleansing is counterproductive in the fight against Antisemitism and the reconciliation of our People,” they continued. ... Thursday’s letter is the second time that Lion and Cichocki have come together to call for a change in Ukrainian memory policy. In June, the pair signed a joint letter to the mayor of the Ukrainian city of Ivano-Frankisvsk, protesting the unveiling of a monument honoring Roman Shukhevych, a collaborator with the Nazis who was implicated in the murder of countless Jews and ethnic Poles. Following Ukraine’s 2014 revolution, the former Soviet republic’s parliament passed a series of bills known collectively as the Decommunization Laws, meant to sever the country’s ties to its Russian and Soviet past. One of the bills prohibited what it called the “public denial of the legitimacy of the struggle for independence of Ukraine in the twentieth century.” In practical terms, these bills paved the way for the rehabilitation of Ukrainian ultranationalist figures who had collaborated with the Nazis. Over the last several years, streets all over Ukraine have been named after far-right figures and steps have been taken to rehabilitate their images, casting them as fighters for democracy whose followers saved Jews from the Germans. Asked about the letter, Ambassador Lion told The Times of Israel that Israel and Poland “have a common interest in combating Holocaust denial and rewriting of History.” " [0] [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-row-over-holocaust-history-israel-and-poland-issue-joint-critique-of-ukraine/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-row-over-holocaust-history-...
mistermann 2y ago
I am curious about: - how much of this is actually true - if it is necessarily possible for civilians to determine what is true here - how many others wonder about these same sorts of things Note that I have made no assertion one way or the other about the true epistemic status of these accusations.
- VincentEvans 2y ago
  Some here: https://www.justice.gov/d9/2024-09/doppelganger_affidavit_9.4.24.pdf https://www.justice.gov/d9/2024-09/doppelganger_affidavit_9....
  - mistermann 2y ago
    It is interesting and relevant, but does not address the questions as stated (which was not accidental). I doubt many people would notice that, which is a big part of why it's so easy to herd Normies.
- throw310822 2y ago
  Some of the first examples of fake comments on social media (e.g. 38 years old German woman saying that giving up Russian gas has damaged the country's economy and that Germany doesn't have to hurt itself for Ukraine) express perfectly legitimate and quite obvious opinions that certainly don't need a Russian agent to be spread or even suggested- probably there are millions of German citizens thinking the same. It's definitely great for an adversary of Russia to be able to claim that such an opinion is illegitimate, having being spread by an enemy agent. Now you don't need to engage with the argument and you can just dismiss it as an example of enemy propaganda.
AnimalMuppet 2y ago
Important story. How do we quit being suckers? How do we stop others from amplifying the lies/propaganda that they're producing? (I mean, I guess a first step is to be more skeptical ourselves, and that we stop repeating lies. But then what? "Teach others to do the same" may not scale as well as we would like...)
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > How do we quit being suckers? Learn the history of uncomfortable things. I’m reading The Wages of Destruction. It details the economic incompetence of the Nazis. That was surprising! The Nazis (and fascists generally) are portrayed as competent to the point of ruthless roboticness. But that’s their propaganda, not reality. Jingoism, isolationism (military and economic), racial scapegoating…these are used by extremists to consolidate power. In the medium run, they almost always fail. They rise because of dissatisfaction, almost always the fault of the elites. But at that moment of dissatisfaction, the polis has a choice: confront the problems head on, or distract with one of the above. When a society chooses the latter, it tends to fall. Historically the nonsense leading up to all that weakens the state and prompts “integration” into a neighbour. (Conquest.) That both kept people rational and solved the problem when they weren’t. Modern warfare means that is no longer an option. So the stupidity runs longer, potentially for a lifetime, without resolution while the society rots.
- 8338550bff96 2y ago
  Social dissonance and alienation is what creates an attractive environment for propaganda to take hold. Going after specific groups fails to treat the root cause. If we lived in a country where you were free to disagree without being alienated and we wouldn't have nearly as many free-radicals. "you believe <X>, therefore you're just a typical demonic <Y>" is a great way to turn a radical idea into a radical person. Let ideas be radical so that people don't have to be
- jeffbee 2y ago
  A blanket increase in skepticism might not work, could be counterproductive, and you can argue that blind skepticism is one of the root causes of current disinformation crisis. People feel like they are superior thinkers because they reject every widely-held description of reality and embrace every conspiracy theory they find on the web.
worstspotgain 2y ago
There's one subtle aspect that we tend to lose sight of. Suppose you have an election where a regular candidate or party goes up against a troll-propped devil incarnate. The latter should have no business advancing or succeeding in politics, yet here we are. By many measures, Putin has already won at that point. If the establishment fires off the artillery, democracy itself catches flak. Almost paradoxically, democracy's defenders are forced into measured complicity and silent legitimization. It's just a flesh wound and there's not much to see here.
jmward01 2y ago
It is hard to read things like this and not have a strong emotional reaction instead of the appropriate strong intellectual one. Fundamentally attacks like these need to start with the question 'What is an appropriate response?'. These attacks are having an actual impact and have likely swayed many elections. Effectively they have brought down at least parts of various governments. That reasoning arguably calls for a very strong response since it is a real existential threat to countries. I think that a major issue here however is that governments haven't actually internalized how destructive these threats are, likely because they are using them indiscriminately themselves. "It's just propaganda and only electrons" Admitting the scale and impact of actions like these would be condemning their own actions. We need stronger international understanding that things like this are actually violent attacks aimed at overthrowing a government and that they should be considered potentially acts of war. At the same time however we need to constantly fight to deescalate since this is a new area of conflict and missteps can lead to tragedy. Figuring out responses that work, without increasing attacks, both virtual and physical, is key.
- stonethrowaway 2y ago
  Let’s start here: what are YOU going to do about it other than high brow HN?
  - jmward01 2y ago
    Solid point. Not sure. I barely use social media and I don't think I have shared a meme in my life. Not sure I will change much about what I would do, but I have considered contacting my representatives about things like this. (I have contacted them in the past about other issues) Beyond that I think engaging in constructive discussions about the discussion is an important thing we are missing and I hope I am trying to do that now with responses like this. Maybe.
    - stonethrowaway 2y ago
      Who are your representatives? Do they really represent you?
alex_jeweler 2y ago
[flagged]
Tutejszy 2y ago
[dead]
hjk2 2y ago
No need to manipulate elections from outside. Every country does it their own way without assistance. Compare two tweets of the same agency: 1. https://x.com/CBSNews/status/1802803402545467446?t=29N_O490Qbdj3xShr8SJ3A&s=19 https://x.com/CBSNews/status/1802803402545467446?t=29N_O490Q... 2. https://x.com/CBSNews/status/1823049308230324279?t=9Tr3aIPVVgTBqRS8FDKzZg&s=19 https://x.com/CBSNews/status/1823049308230324279?t=9Tr3aIPVV... Screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/y2fDLWz https://imgur.com/a/y2fDLWz
- libertine 2y ago
  What you're leaving out is that CBS isn't posing as a "USA Citizen from Springfield", while being from another country, sponsored by a foreign state in an undisclosed way. Do you think ID Checks on social media should be implemented to avoid those problems?
  - whamlastxmas 2y ago
    CBS is posing as journalism when it’s really just propaganda, which is worse
    - libertine 2y ago
      I don't really see how an institution being transparent about who they are, is worse about institutions hiding who they are and posing as someone they're not, while being funded by a state. Can you explain further?
  - orbital-decay 2y ago
    Do you? Both posts linked above were made with full identity disclosure. Does it make anyone outside of a tiny minority that understands how media works more aware of the manipulation? Does this awareness make manipulation less effective?
    - libertine 2y ago
      > Both posts linked above were made with full identity disclosure. Well that's why I said those posts are a bad example. I'm talking about those who pose as something they're not funded to do so, covertly. So lets say, if you had someone from a foreign country with an ID Check claim to be something they're not (you could even publicly display their country), would make all of those efforts a bit more transparent. Or for example, with group of Youtubers known to promote propaganda, now we know they were paid to do so by a foreign country. Now you can completely dismiss them, and with an easy reminder, you can put their credibility in check. > Does this awareness make manipulation less effective? I think so, the best thing you can do is inform people. Of course, this should be done collectively, or else it would be targeted for conspiracy theories.
neilv 2y ago
This is plausible. However, reminded of critical thinking, I realized I initially accepted as truth something reported on some Web site I'd never even heard of. I didn't quickly find any recognizable credible outlets reporting this, so now I suspect I'm not the only person who jumped at something they were biased to believe, simply because it was claimed on the Internet. Which is humbling, when I'm thinking unflattering things about all the "other people" who gobble up propaganda without critical thinking. I'm not saying this story is false, but simply that I and perhaps others believed it immediately, merely because we were prejudiced to believe it, and heard it claimed by anyone.
qingcharles 2y ago
These Russians bought their domains through Namecheap. That doesn't seem like a smart move when you are bombing all their Ukrainian staff.
spants 2y ago
How do we know that this is true?. That is todays problem - can you trust anything?
hn1986 2y ago
And this is likely only the beginning. Election starts in two months.

108 points by Anon84 2y ago

jeffbee 2y ago

Where can I see the 100s of leaked memes?

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
Seconded. "This list of specific things are Russian lies" would be a useful data point. We could clean up our own internal mental databases somewhat, and we could adjust our priors as to which information sources were telling it straight.
rasz 2y ago
Try Musk tweets. He directly posted at least one, the "When it's been 5 minutes and you haven't spread Russian propaganda" https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12589987/Perhaps-really-agent-Russian-state-TV-celebrates-Elon-Musk-Elon-Muscovite-posted-Ukraine-War-meme-mocking-Zelensky.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12589987/Perhaps-re...
- rasz 2y ago
  uh, rather 'When it's been 5 minutes and you haven't asked for a billion dollars in aid'.
hjk2 2y ago
Where can I watch the video mentioned (or just fansied by the author) in the first paragraph?
VincentEvans 2y ago
Some here: https://www.justice.gov/d9/2024-09/doppelganger_affidavit_9.4.24.pdf https://www.justice.gov/d9/2024-09/doppelganger_affidavit_9....
- qingcharles 2y ago
  yikes.. "Project goals: At present, the situation in the state of Israel seems very favorable for launching a major project aimed at influencing public opinion. The goal of such influence is to rip Israel out of the general Western anti-Russian agenda and to create a sustainable public opinion which would deem neo-Nazism and dictatorship in Ukraine, rendering aid to neo Nazis, and, therefore, the escalation of the conflict by the West and helping anti-Russian political emigration unacceptable. Under current circumstances, these goals could be achieved in a relatively short term, relying on forces that in fact exist within the country as well as in the Jewish diaspora in the United States. Based on this, the key indicator of the effectiveness of the project will be an increase in the number of Israeli citizens supporting Russia in the fight against Nazism."
  - protomolecule 2y ago
    Doesn't seem to be that hard a goal. "Israel and Poland, which have clashed repeatedly in recent years over differing interpretations of the history of the Second World War, came together on Thursday to issue a rare joint condemnation of Ukraine over its efforts to rehabilitate nationalists who collaborated with the Nazis. The criticism came one day after Ukrainians marked the 111th birthday of Stepan Bandera, the wartime leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), a violently anti-Semitic organization that collaborated with the Nazis. Among Holocaust historians, the consensus is that the OUN and its military offshoot, known as the UPA, were responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews and up to 100,000 Poles during the war (estimates vary). In a joint letter to civic leaders in Lviv and Kyiv, Israeli ambassador Joel Lion and his Polish counterpart, Bartosz Cichocki, expressed concern regarding efforts to honor Bandera and Andryi Melnyk, the head of a competing faction of the OUN. In Kyiv on Wednesday, local officials raised a giant banner with Bandera’s picture over the city administration building, prompting anger from Jewish activists. That came just over a week after the Lviv Oblast Council approved funding for a 2020 celebration in honor of Melnyk. “Remembering our innocent brothers and sisters murdered in the occupied territories of Poland 1935-1945, which now constitute a part of Ukraine, we the Ambassadors of Poland and Israel believe, that celebrating these individuals is an insult,” Lion and Cichocki wrote. “Glorification of those who promoted actively the ethnic cleansing is counterproductive in the fight against Antisemitism and the reconciliation of our People,” they continued. ... Thursday’s letter is the second time that Lion and Cichocki have come together to call for a change in Ukrainian memory policy. In June, the pair signed a joint letter to the mayor of the Ukrainian city of Ivano-Frankisvsk, protesting the unveiling of a monument honoring Roman Shukhevych, a collaborator with the Nazis who was implicated in the murder of countless Jews and ethnic Poles. Following Ukraine’s 2014 revolution, the former Soviet republic’s parliament passed a series of bills known collectively as the Decommunization Laws, meant to sever the country’s ties to its Russian and Soviet past. One of the bills prohibited what it called the “public denial of the legitimacy of the struggle for independence of Ukraine in the twentieth century.” In practical terms, these bills paved the way for the rehabilitation of Ukrainian ultranationalist figures who had collaborated with the Nazis. Over the last several years, streets all over Ukraine have been named after far-right figures and steps have been taken to rehabilitate their images, casting them as fighters for democracy whose followers saved Jews from the Germans. Asked about the letter, Ambassador Lion told The Times of Israel that Israel and Poland “have a common interest in combating Holocaust denial and rewriting of History.” " [0] [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-row-over-holocaust-history-israel-and-poland-issue-joint-critique-of-ukraine/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-row-over-holocaust-history-...

mistermann 2y ago

I am curious about: - how much of this is actually true - if it is necessarily possible for civilians to determine what is true here - how many others wonder about these same sorts of things Note that I have made no assertion one way or the other about the true epistemic status of these accusations.

VincentEvans 2y ago
Some here: https://www.justice.gov/d9/2024-09/doppelganger_affidavit_9.4.24.pdf https://www.justice.gov/d9/2024-09/doppelganger_affidavit_9....
- mistermann 2y ago
  It is interesting and relevant, but does not address the questions as stated (which was not accidental). I doubt many people would notice that, which is a big part of why it's so easy to herd Normies.
throw310822 2y ago
Some of the first examples of fake comments on social media (e.g. 38 years old German woman saying that giving up Russian gas has damaged the country's economy and that Germany doesn't have to hurt itself for Ukraine) express perfectly legitimate and quite obvious opinions that certainly don't need a Russian agent to be spread or even suggested- probably there are millions of German citizens thinking the same. It's definitely great for an adversary of Russia to be able to claim that such an opinion is illegitimate, having being spread by an enemy agent. Now you don't need to engage with the argument and you can just dismiss it as an example of enemy propaganda.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago

Important story. How do we quit being suckers? How do we stop others from amplifying the lies/propaganda that they're producing? (I mean, I guess a first step is to be more skeptical ourselves, and that we stop repeating lies. But then what? "Teach others to do the same" may not scale as well as we would like...)

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> How do we quit being suckers? Learn the history of uncomfortable things. I’m reading The Wages of Destruction. It details the economic incompetence of the Nazis. That was surprising! The Nazis (and fascists generally) are portrayed as competent to the point of ruthless roboticness. But that’s their propaganda, not reality. Jingoism, isolationism (military and economic), racial scapegoating…these are used by extremists to consolidate power. In the medium run, they almost always fail. They rise because of dissatisfaction, almost always the fault of the elites. But at that moment of dissatisfaction, the polis has a choice: confront the problems head on, or distract with one of the above. When a society chooses the latter, it tends to fall. Historically the nonsense leading up to all that weakens the state and prompts “integration” into a neighbour. (Conquest.) That both kept people rational and solved the problem when they weren’t. Modern warfare means that is no longer an option. So the stupidity runs longer, potentially for a lifetime, without resolution while the society rots.
8338550bff96 2y ago
Social dissonance and alienation is what creates an attractive environment for propaganda to take hold. Going after specific groups fails to treat the root cause. If we lived in a country where you were free to disagree without being alienated and we wouldn't have nearly as many free-radicals. "you believe <X>, therefore you're just a typical demonic <Y>" is a great way to turn a radical idea into a radical person. Let ideas be radical so that people don't have to be
jeffbee 2y ago
A blanket increase in skepticism might not work, could be counterproductive, and you can argue that blind skepticism is one of the root causes of current disinformation crisis. People feel like they are superior thinkers because they reject every widely-held description of reality and embrace every conspiracy theory they find on the web.

worstspotgain 2y ago

There's one subtle aspect that we tend to lose sight of. Suppose you have an election where a regular candidate or party goes up against a troll-propped devil incarnate. The latter should have no business advancing or succeeding in politics, yet here we are. By many measures, Putin has already won at that point. If the establishment fires off the artillery, democracy itself catches flak. Almost paradoxically, democracy's defenders are forced into measured complicity and silent legitimization. It's just a flesh wound and there's not much to see here.

jmward01 2y ago

It is hard to read things like this and not have a strong emotional reaction instead of the appropriate strong intellectual one. Fundamentally attacks like these need to start with the question 'What is an appropriate response?'. These attacks are having an actual impact and have likely swayed many elections. Effectively they have brought down at least parts of various governments. That reasoning arguably calls for a very strong response since it is a real existential threat to countries. I think that a major issue here however is that governments haven't actually internalized how destructive these threats are, likely because they are using them indiscriminately themselves. "It's just propaganda and only electrons" Admitting the scale and impact of actions like these would be condemning their own actions. We need stronger international understanding that things like this are actually violent attacks aimed at overthrowing a government and that they should be considered potentially acts of war. At the same time however we need to constantly fight to deescalate since this is a new area of conflict and missteps can lead to tragedy. Figuring out responses that work, without increasing attacks, both virtual and physical, is key.

stonethrowaway 2y ago
Let’s start here: what are YOU going to do about it other than high brow HN?
- jmward01 2y ago
  Solid point. Not sure. I barely use social media and I don't think I have shared a meme in my life. Not sure I will change much about what I would do, but I have considered contacting my representatives about things like this. (I have contacted them in the past about other issues) Beyond that I think engaging in constructive discussions about the discussion is an important thing we are missing and I hope I am trying to do that now with responses like this. Maybe.
  - stonethrowaway 2y ago
    Who are your representatives? Do they really represent you?

alex_jeweler 2y ago

[flagged]

Tutejszy 2y ago

[dead]

hjk2 2y ago

No need to manipulate elections from outside. Every country does it their own way without assistance. Compare two tweets of the same agency: 1. https://x.com/CBSNews/status/1802803402545467446?t=29N_O490Qbdj3xShr8SJ3A&s=19 https://x.com/CBSNews/status/1802803402545467446?t=29N_O490Q... 2. https://x.com/CBSNews/status/1823049308230324279?t=9Tr3aIPVVgTBqRS8FDKzZg&s=19 https://x.com/CBSNews/status/1823049308230324279?t=9Tr3aIPVV... Screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/y2fDLWz https://imgur.com/a/y2fDLWz

libertine 2y ago
What you're leaving out is that CBS isn't posing as a "USA Citizen from Springfield", while being from another country, sponsored by a foreign state in an undisclosed way. Do you think ID Checks on social media should be implemented to avoid those problems?
- whamlastxmas 2y ago
  CBS is posing as journalism when it’s really just propaganda, which is worse
  - libertine 2y ago
    I don't really see how an institution being transparent about who they are, is worse about institutions hiding who they are and posing as someone they're not, while being funded by a state. Can you explain further?
- orbital-decay 2y ago
  Do you? Both posts linked above were made with full identity disclosure. Does it make anyone outside of a tiny minority that understands how media works more aware of the manipulation? Does this awareness make manipulation less effective?
  - libertine 2y ago
    > Both posts linked above were made with full identity disclosure. Well that's why I said those posts are a bad example. I'm talking about those who pose as something they're not funded to do so, covertly. So lets say, if you had someone from a foreign country with an ID Check claim to be something they're not (you could even publicly display their country), would make all of those efforts a bit more transparent. Or for example, with group of Youtubers known to promote propaganda, now we know they were paid to do so by a foreign country. Now you can completely dismiss them, and with an easy reminder, you can put their credibility in check. > Does this awareness make manipulation less effective? I think so, the best thing you can do is inform people. Of course, this should be done collectively, or else it would be targeted for conspiracy theories.

neilv 2y ago

This is plausible. However, reminded of critical thinking, I realized I initially accepted as truth something reported on some Web site I'd never even heard of. I didn't quickly find any recognizable credible outlets reporting this, so now I suspect I'm not the only person who jumped at something they were biased to believe, simply because it was claimed on the Internet. Which is humbling, when I'm thinking unflattering things about all the "other people" who gobble up propaganda without critical thinking. I'm not saying this story is false, but simply that I and perhaps others believed it immediately, merely because we were prejudiced to believe it, and heard it claimed by anyone.

qingcharles 2y ago

These Russians bought their domains through Namecheap. That doesn't seem like a smart move when you are bombing all their Ukrainian staff.

spants 2y ago

How do we know that this is true?. That is todays problem - can you trust anything?

hn1986 2y ago

And this is likely only the beginning. Election starts in two months.