5 ms·

If an entire shipment was intercepted and modified, how many other pagers are out there? How many non-targeted persons are walking around with a bomb in their

If an entire shipment was intercepted and modified, how many other pagers are out there? How many non-targeted persons are walking around with a bomb in their pocket?

riffraff 2y ago
There's also plenty of bystanders who are being impacted by an explosion happening in the pocket of the person next to them. I don't think whoever approved this was worried about innocent people getting hurt.
- tptacek 2y ago
  I watched a video of one of these exploding in the pocket of someone at a grocery store with someone standing directly next to him, so close they were rubbing shoulders, and the bystander was fine. No doubt there were many dozens of civilian casualties, but if the numbers net out the way you'd expect they would (ie: people carrying these pagers, which link to Hezbollah's own communications network --- they run their own phone company --- are overwhelmingly Hezbollah operatives) this is going to pencil out as one of the most surgical attacks of all time. Every military strike in modern warfare will involve someone in some sense not worrying about innocent people getting hurt. This isn't Agincourt. Wars happen in cities now.
  - kasey_junk 2y ago
    There are too many threads and this is too complicated a topic for a technology forum website so I’m not going to weigh in everywhere. But you yourself recognize that a) Hezbollah is a de facto government, not just a military or terrorist organization and that b) its folly to do some sort of algebra on casualties in these conflicts and intent is what matters. It’s hard to come up with a plausible intent for a strike that injured 2700 people, with only the weakest of targeting mechanisms across a population that ranges the gamut of occupations, other than terrorism. We would certainly view it as such if Hezbollah blew up 2700 phones of the Israeli government and military.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      That depends on who the 2700 people are, right? If it's 2700 random people, I agree. If it's 2600 Hezbollah operatives, not so much. If Hezbollah managed to surgically strike 2600 IDF soldiers, injuring and killing an additional 100 bystanders, I promise you I would offer the same analysis. I'm measuring this against the standard of military operations conducted by western countries, the state of the art of which is Hellfire missiles fired into cars and apartment buildings. I'm trying to be hedge-y as I write this stuff. We could absolutely learn things that would change my take on this!
      - bjourne 2y ago
        [flagged]
        tptacek 2y ago
        No. All members of the armed forces of a party to the conflict are combatants, except medical and religious personnel. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule3 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule3
        bjourne 2y ago
        Yes. The term you used was "operative" and it is not synonymous with "member of armed force".
        tptacek 2y ago
        It indeed does. Unless you are a medic or a chaplain, if you are even under the effective command of Hezbollah, let alone employed by it, you're a valid combatant target. Uniforms and current participation in combat operations has nothing to do with it. If you want to make the claim that Hezbollah operates schools and hospitals and that employment at those institutions doesn't designate somebody as a combatant, I will absolutely agree with you. But it's very unlikely, to me, that those people are carrying Hezbollah military command and control telecoms devices. We could learn otherwise, and if we do, I'll acknowledge that. But from what we're learning now, it's not looking likely.
- dralley 2y ago
  One of the most specifically targeted, discriminatory large-scale attacks of all time, and still people complain.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  If they didn’t care they would directly level the building.

If an entire shipment was intercepted and modified, how many other pagers are out there? How many non-targeted persons are walking around with a bomb in their pocket?

riffraff 2y ago

There's also plenty of bystanders who are being impacted by an explosion happening in the pocket of the person next to them. I don't think whoever approved this was worried about innocent people getting hurt.

tptacek 2y ago
I watched a video of one of these exploding in the pocket of someone at a grocery store with someone standing directly next to him, so close they were rubbing shoulders, and the bystander was fine. No doubt there were many dozens of civilian casualties, but if the numbers net out the way you'd expect they would (ie: people carrying these pagers, which link to Hezbollah's own communications network --- they run their own phone company --- are overwhelmingly Hezbollah operatives) this is going to pencil out as one of the most surgical attacks of all time. Every military strike in modern warfare will involve someone in some sense not worrying about innocent people getting hurt. This isn't Agincourt. Wars happen in cities now.
- kasey_junk 2y ago
  There are too many threads and this is too complicated a topic for a technology forum website so I’m not going to weigh in everywhere. But you yourself recognize that a) Hezbollah is a de facto government, not just a military or terrorist organization and that b) its folly to do some sort of algebra on casualties in these conflicts and intent is what matters. It’s hard to come up with a plausible intent for a strike that injured 2700 people, with only the weakest of targeting mechanisms across a population that ranges the gamut of occupations, other than terrorism. We would certainly view it as such if Hezbollah blew up 2700 phones of the Israeli government and military.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    That depends on who the 2700 people are, right? If it's 2700 random people, I agree. If it's 2600 Hezbollah operatives, not so much. If Hezbollah managed to surgically strike 2600 IDF soldiers, injuring and killing an additional 100 bystanders, I promise you I would offer the same analysis. I'm measuring this against the standard of military operations conducted by western countries, the state of the art of which is Hellfire missiles fired into cars and apartment buildings. I'm trying to be hedge-y as I write this stuff. We could absolutely learn things that would change my take on this!
    - bjourne 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - tptacek 2y ago
        No. All members of the armed forces of a party to the conflict are combatants, except medical and religious personnel. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule3 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule3
        bjourne 2y ago
        Yes. The term you used was "operative" and it is not synonymous with "member of armed force".
        tptacek 2y ago
        It indeed does. Unless you are a medic or a chaplain, if you are even under the effective command of Hezbollah, let alone employed by it, you're a valid combatant target. Uniforms and current participation in combat operations has nothing to do with it. If you want to make the claim that Hezbollah operates schools and hospitals and that employment at those institutions doesn't designate somebody as a combatant, I will absolutely agree with you. But it's very unlikely, to me, that those people are carrying Hezbollah military command and control telecoms devices. We could learn otherwise, and if we do, I'll acknowledge that. But from what we're learning now, it's not looking likely.
dralley 2y ago
One of the most specifically targeted, discriminatory large-scale attacks of all time, and still people complain.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
If they didn’t care they would directly level the building.