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Men, be friends with women. On the whole, they tend to be better at it. If a man can learn to be friends with women he can then form better friendships with men

Men, be friends with women. On the whole, they tend to be better at it. If a man can learn to be friends with women he can then form better friendships with men. And be better able to discern which men to bother to pursue friendships with. That was one of my takeaways from this (and also from my actual life).

TechDebtDevin 2y ago
[flagged]
- geewee 2y ago
  Why?
- 1_1xdev1 2y ago
  It also works if you think of women as people instead of sexual objects. But it also requires the women to think of you the same way (this is, rarely, a problem)
  - lazide 2y ago
    You’d be surprised sometimes. If you do notable things, women get pretty thirsty.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - ValentinA23 2y ago
    >this is, rarely, a problem It depends on how handsome the guy is. Imagine the following situation. Comp-sci class in uni. 30 guys, 5 women. 4 hit on you. 3 offer sex. Date one, and it's a shitshow. I'm not even talking about other guys being jealous.
knighthack 2y ago
A nonsensical and sexist statement. You can have good friendships with other men. Friendships with women is not a necessary contingent precedent for that. Also reversing your statement to use women sounds immediately sexist: "...And be better able to discern which women to bother to pursue friendships with." The corollary being that not all women are good women, or worth your friendship, just because they're women.
SoftTalker 2y ago
As a man I find it far easier to have a friendship with another man because the whole sexual element is entirely absent and it seems much easier to find stuff we have in common to talk about. Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.
- golergka 2y ago
  > Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem. That's not a healthy relationship.
  - oguz-ismail 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - RoyalHenOil 2y ago
      If you or your partner are the sort of person who might cheat, then sure I guess. But I personally wouldn't want to be in a relationship where cheating was on the cards and we had to regulate our social lives to prevent it. I don't think that's healthy. My husband and I have been in a rock solid relationship for over a decade, and we don't have any issues with opposite-sex friendships. It would be weird if we did because it would mean that we couldn't have any mutual friends and share a social life together as a couple. That seems really unnatural and unhealthy to me.
      - maxbond 2y ago
        To add, depending on the context, this could also be a sign of controlling behavior. Policing who your partner is friends with is pretty classic controlling behavior, but insisting your partner not be friends with their preferred gender is also "normal" in certain circles. I don't think that's a healthy norm, but it is important context. For instance, if someone's partner said they couldn't be friends with men/women, and then tried to create distance between them and their family, then I would advise them to leave that relationship immediately. That would be a dangerous situation.
kylehotchkiss 2y ago
Mine was that good hangout time with other guys is working on projects together, regardless of how meaningful that project may or may not be. It's really nice to get your mind off of whatever was racing across it all day to think about a stupid old car or 3d printer or digging holes in a yard.
kredd 2y ago
Yeah, I never got the perspective of the people who said otherwise. It's wild how throughout my life I've met people who put 50% of the entire population into "can't be friends with them" group. Maybe I'm just lucky, but all of my male friends have women friends and vice-versa. Grew up in different countries as well, so it's really cross-cultural if one puts a bit of effort.
dyauspitr 2y ago
I disagree, it’s a different modality and you become too sensitive to be able to be really good friends with men.
- maxbond 2y ago
  Alternatively, after experiencing other modalities of friendship, you may realize that some of the men you're "friends" with are actually just bullying you, and dump them. I imagine that when you stand up to them, your frenemy would say, jeez, when did you get so sensitive. I've been mocking and undermining you for years, so what's the problem? Men's friendships often involve good natured jabs, but sometimes insecure men will use that as cover to treat you like a doormat. Life is too short to be fodder for their ego. Also, it's not generally true that you'll lose access to one modality of friendship if you learn another. People move between different friend groups and subcultures all the time and code switch as necessary. (I don't doubt that some people have trouble with this, however.)
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    Eh I enjoy a constant back and forth, makes me feel at home and nothing is left unsaid. I know at least some of my friends I’ve known for decades would come very close to giving their life for me as would I. You sound like someone that has had a lifetime of acquaintances.
    - maxbond 2y ago
      That's total projection I'm afraid. I think you're assuming that, if I have an experience in any way dissimilar, I must not have friends? I'm just guessing because this is a non sequitur. Thankfully, that's not the case. To be clear, it's exceedingly rare that I've had to kick people out of my life. And if you say that you and your friends engage in mutual banter, then I believe it. I've enjoyed some banter in my time. It's not clear to me if you're saying there's a pattern in your life of friends becoming "too sensitive," but if there is, I do think that's something to interrogate.
    - standardUser 2y ago
deminature 2y ago
I agree that friendships with women can be really fulfilling, but I've never had it work long-term without lines getting blurred and usually instigated by the woman. Friendships with men are reliably less complicated.
- jajko 2y ago
  Men-to-men is often much less complicated, many things are understood automatically, agreement comes quicker, if sports then having similar level is more probable. Of course I mean just true friendships, not some hunting for next partner in disguise (or something I saw quite often - keeping group of 'friends' around for next loneliness period to choose next partner from - both men and women are equally guilty here, there was always some weird little dynamics happening under the bonnet). Guy-guy relationship at the end can easily be 100% honest and true friendship which is what men are normally looking for, guy-woman rarely so, even if they keep acting and telling themselves its just that. Biology is not something you can keep denying for long under various circumstances. As for the main topic generally, I'd suggest either joining some group of people practicing sport one likes, or even better organize something for others. If you want dating, women will notice, they always like seeing competence and self-sufficiency. Women - if you have good close straight male friends, and you are at least a bit attractive - don't think for a second they didn't at least once have a fantasy of having sex/dating you, most probably more than once. Maybe not 100% of men, but 98-99% for sure, we are not that complicated.
  - standardUser 2y ago
    I find these perspectives to be steeped in sexist and outdated stereotypes. Women know if men are attracted to them. It's OK! That does not need to hinder the relationship at all. And no friendship is "100% honest and true" until that relationship has endured many years of change and challenges. Those situations are so rare that it would be foolish and sad to pretend it can only occur with specific gender sets. I'm guessing/hoping you are fairly young because though I can see how these perspectives make a lot of sense in the early part of life, by the time we are adults we should view these ides as simplistic and silly.
zxexz 2y ago
I've never understood it when I meet men who only have male friends. I understand people are the product of their environments, how they grow up, etc. - but so many of the comments sibling to this one just confuse the hell out of me. Many of my closest friends are also male (I'd say it's close to 50-50...), and none of them have feelings, either. Do these commenters also think gay men have solely female friends, and that non-binary people all live in remote caves, isolated from each other the same as with cisgendered folk?
- Micanthus 2y ago
  I think there are two things that lead people to think like that 1) Modesty/nudity-taboo culture. I can only speak to the US-American perspective here, but I'd guess it's similar in any culture where nudity is taboo. Because you're taught to keep your body covered (and women's bodies moreso than men's) and that you shouldn't--a "should" imbued with moral weight here--see the naked bodies of others unless it's a locker room or you're about to have sex. This creates a kind of mystique around bodies, especially of another gender. With same gender friends, you probably see their bodies occassionally in locker rooms, or just changing casually, maybe skinny dipping, etc... which removes much of the mystique. But in these cultures it's unusual to see a different gender friend nude, so there is some mystery. If there is any sexual attraction that adds to the mystery and creates "tension". In cultures with less modesty or less taboo around nudity, you just see your friends of any gender naked and there is no mystery, and no tension around bodies. 2) Abstinence-only sex education & the sanctity of sex. In cultures where sex is seen as sacred, something you should only do with one person and for procreation, there is also an extent to which sexual attraction itself is shamed. I find that a lot of straight people (especially those without queer friends) feel ashamed if they find their friends attractive, and are unable to continue a platonic friendship if they feel any attraction at all. This is not at all how queer friend groups operate, it's expected you might be attracted to your friends but that doesn't mean you need to have sex or have "tension". The idea that you can be attracted to someone and just not make a problem out of it is very controversial in straight culture sometimes People who believe men and women can't be friends are also in general only thinking about straight cis people. This idea is just absent from queer culture, and also (anecdotally) from straight cis people with many queer friends
laweijfmvo 2y ago
nothing beats a strong bromance bro
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
I just can't do it. I even turned myself into a woman and I still can't, as a lesbian, be platonic friends with other women. There's no middle ground between "She is not that interesting to me, we can be online pen pals but I have no interest in visiting her" and "I'm attracted to her and can't think about anything else" It's probably a disorder honestly
hakdillo 2y ago
There is more nuance here than you let on. I grew up with a hand’s full of sisters. I prefer female friends to male friends. I just lack the experience with the vernacular of male interactions. I am great at making friends, but I am apparently terrible at keeping them. If the woman identifiess as cis het then either they start to develop feelings for me or accuse me of having feelings for them. (even in the absence of such feelings) If they identify as queer they eventually remove me from their lives as I am either unwelcome in their circles or they are ridiculed for having a “cis het white male” friend; even when I consider, and identify, myself as more open than a hard het. (It appears if you say you are uncomfortable with labels people make them up for you and then apply their unique biases.) I’m unsure how to square that circle. I’ve resolved to just keep repeating the same cycles.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

TechDebtDevin 2y ago

[flagged]

geewee 2y ago
Why?
1_1xdev1 2y ago
It also works if you think of women as people instead of sexual objects. But it also requires the women to think of you the same way (this is, rarely, a problem)
- lazide 2y ago
  You’d be surprised sometimes. If you do notable things, women get pretty thirsty.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- ValentinA23 2y ago
  >this is, rarely, a problem It depends on how handsome the guy is. Imagine the following situation. Comp-sci class in uni. 30 guys, 5 women. 4 hit on you. 3 offer sex. Date one, and it's a shitshow. I'm not even talking about other guys being jealous.

knighthack 2y ago

A nonsensical and sexist statement. You can have good friendships with other men. Friendships with women is not a necessary contingent precedent for that. Also reversing your statement to use women sounds immediately sexist: "...And be better able to discern which women to bother to pursue friendships with." The corollary being that not all women are good women, or worth your friendship, just because they're women.

SoftTalker 2y ago

As a man I find it far easier to have a friendship with another man because the whole sexual element is entirely absent and it seems much easier to find stuff we have in common to talk about. Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.

golergka 2y ago
> Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem. That's not a healthy relationship.
- oguz-ismail 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - RoyalHenOil 2y ago
    If you or your partner are the sort of person who might cheat, then sure I guess. But I personally wouldn't want to be in a relationship where cheating was on the cards and we had to regulate our social lives to prevent it. I don't think that's healthy. My husband and I have been in a rock solid relationship for over a decade, and we don't have any issues with opposite-sex friendships. It would be weird if we did because it would mean that we couldn't have any mutual friends and share a social life together as a couple. That seems really unnatural and unhealthy to me.
    - maxbond 2y ago
      To add, depending on the context, this could also be a sign of controlling behavior. Policing who your partner is friends with is pretty classic controlling behavior, but insisting your partner not be friends with their preferred gender is also "normal" in certain circles. I don't think that's a healthy norm, but it is important context. For instance, if someone's partner said they couldn't be friends with men/women, and then tried to create distance between them and their family, then I would advise them to leave that relationship immediately. That would be a dangerous situation.

kylehotchkiss 2y ago

Mine was that good hangout time with other guys is working on projects together, regardless of how meaningful that project may or may not be. It's really nice to get your mind off of whatever was racing across it all day to think about a stupid old car or 3d printer or digging holes in a yard.

kredd 2y ago

Yeah, I never got the perspective of the people who said otherwise. It's wild how throughout my life I've met people who put 50% of the entire population into "can't be friends with them" group. Maybe I'm just lucky, but all of my male friends have women friends and vice-versa. Grew up in different countries as well, so it's really cross-cultural if one puts a bit of effort.

dyauspitr 2y ago

I disagree, it’s a different modality and you become too sensitive to be able to be really good friends with men.

maxbond 2y ago
Alternatively, after experiencing other modalities of friendship, you may realize that some of the men you're "friends" with are actually just bullying you, and dump them. I imagine that when you stand up to them, your frenemy would say, jeez, when did you get so sensitive. I've been mocking and undermining you for years, so what's the problem? Men's friendships often involve good natured jabs, but sometimes insecure men will use that as cover to treat you like a doormat. Life is too short to be fodder for their ego. Also, it's not generally true that you'll lose access to one modality of friendship if you learn another. People move between different friend groups and subcultures all the time and code switch as necessary. (I don't doubt that some people have trouble with this, however.)
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  Eh I enjoy a constant back and forth, makes me feel at home and nothing is left unsaid. I know at least some of my friends I’ve known for decades would come very close to giving their life for me as would I. You sound like someone that has had a lifetime of acquaintances.
  - maxbond 2y ago
    That's total projection I'm afraid. I think you're assuming that, if I have an experience in any way dissimilar, I must not have friends? I'm just guessing because this is a non sequitur. Thankfully, that's not the case. To be clear, it's exceedingly rare that I've had to kick people out of my life. And if you say that you and your friends engage in mutual banter, then I believe it. I've enjoyed some banter in my time. It's not clear to me if you're saying there's a pattern in your life of friends becoming "too sensitive," but if there is, I do think that's something to interrogate.
  - standardUser 2y ago

deminature 2y ago

I agree that friendships with women can be really fulfilling, but I've never had it work long-term without lines getting blurred and usually instigated by the woman. Friendships with men are reliably less complicated.

jajko 2y ago
Men-to-men is often much less complicated, many things are understood automatically, agreement comes quicker, if sports then having similar level is more probable. Of course I mean just true friendships, not some hunting for next partner in disguise (or something I saw quite often - keeping group of 'friends' around for next loneliness period to choose next partner from - both men and women are equally guilty here, there was always some weird little dynamics happening under the bonnet). Guy-guy relationship at the end can easily be 100% honest and true friendship which is what men are normally looking for, guy-woman rarely so, even if they keep acting and telling themselves its just that. Biology is not something you can keep denying for long under various circumstances. As for the main topic generally, I'd suggest either joining some group of people practicing sport one likes, or even better organize something for others. If you want dating, women will notice, they always like seeing competence and self-sufficiency. Women - if you have good close straight male friends, and you are at least a bit attractive - don't think for a second they didn't at least once have a fantasy of having sex/dating you, most probably more than once. Maybe not 100% of men, but 98-99% for sure, we are not that complicated.
- standardUser 2y ago
  I find these perspectives to be steeped in sexist and outdated stereotypes. Women know if men are attracted to them. It's OK! That does not need to hinder the relationship at all. And no friendship is "100% honest and true" until that relationship has endured many years of change and challenges. Those situations are so rare that it would be foolish and sad to pretend it can only occur with specific gender sets. I'm guessing/hoping you are fairly young because though I can see how these perspectives make a lot of sense in the early part of life, by the time we are adults we should view these ides as simplistic and silly.

zxexz 2y ago

I've never understood it when I meet men who only have male friends. I understand people are the product of their environments, how they grow up, etc. - but so many of the comments sibling to this one just confuse the hell out of me. Many of my closest friends are also male (I'd say it's close to 50-50...), and none of them have feelings, either. Do these commenters also think gay men have solely female friends, and that non-binary people all live in remote caves, isolated from each other the same as with cisgendered folk?

Micanthus 2y ago
I think there are two things that lead people to think like that 1) Modesty/nudity-taboo culture. I can only speak to the US-American perspective here, but I'd guess it's similar in any culture where nudity is taboo. Because you're taught to keep your body covered (and women's bodies moreso than men's) and that you shouldn't--a "should" imbued with moral weight here--see the naked bodies of others unless it's a locker room or you're about to have sex. This creates a kind of mystique around bodies, especially of another gender. With same gender friends, you probably see their bodies occassionally in locker rooms, or just changing casually, maybe skinny dipping, etc... which removes much of the mystique. But in these cultures it's unusual to see a different gender friend nude, so there is some mystery. If there is any sexual attraction that adds to the mystery and creates "tension". In cultures with less modesty or less taboo around nudity, you just see your friends of any gender naked and there is no mystery, and no tension around bodies. 2) Abstinence-only sex education & the sanctity of sex. In cultures where sex is seen as sacred, something you should only do with one person and for procreation, there is also an extent to which sexual attraction itself is shamed. I find that a lot of straight people (especially those without queer friends) feel ashamed if they find their friends attractive, and are unable to continue a platonic friendship if they feel any attraction at all. This is not at all how queer friend groups operate, it's expected you might be attracted to your friends but that doesn't mean you need to have sex or have "tension". The idea that you can be attracted to someone and just not make a problem out of it is very controversial in straight culture sometimes People who believe men and women can't be friends are also in general only thinking about straight cis people. This idea is just absent from queer culture, and also (anecdotally) from straight cis people with many queer friends

laweijfmvo 2y ago

nothing beats a strong bromance bro

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago

I just can't do it. I even turned myself into a woman and I still can't, as a lesbian, be platonic friends with other women. There's no middle ground between "She is not that interesting to me, we can be online pen pals but I have no interest in visiting her" and "I'm attracted to her and can't think about anything else" It's probably a disorder honestly

hakdillo 2y ago

There is more nuance here than you let on. I grew up with a hand’s full of sisters. I prefer female friends to male friends. I just lack the experience with the vernacular of male interactions. I am great at making friends, but I am apparently terrible at keeping them. If the woman identifiess as cis het then either they start to develop feelings for me or accuse me of having feelings for them. (even in the absence of such feelings) If they identify as queer they eventually remove me from their lives as I am either unwelcome in their circles or they are ridiculed for having a “cis het white male” friend; even when I consider, and identify, myself as more open than a hard het. (It appears if you say you are uncomfortable with labels people make them up for you and then apply their unique biases.) I’m unsure how to square that circle. I’ve resolved to just keep repeating the same cycles.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]