6 ms·

Breaking, civil forfeiture is uncivilized and should be unlawful.

tbrownaw 2y ago
It does have (very very narrow) legitimate purpose, which is problematic abandoned property. Like say your age-of-sail ship has illegal stuff discovered by the customs inspectors, and everyone you can track down insists it isn't theirs. But that ends the moment someone says it's theirs, or there are records pointing to an owner who isn't actively hiding from you. This whole modern "prove where you got it from" bs is just theft.
- xbar 2y ago
  Nope. It only invites corruption.
- tisdadd 2y ago
  It is indeed. I know there are not as many who lived through the great depression now, but really cannot blame those who don't trust the banks. Also feel like we get taxed way more than we should be with many things getting taxed multiple times... Going to stop before going full rant. Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around...
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    People who don't trust banks don't understand fiat money, fractional reserve banking, and inflationary monetary policy.
    - 1970-01-01 2y ago
      Banks can crash faster than you can adapt. It can be extremely hard to physically get to your savings money in a crisis.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        A bank failure + deposit insurance bust is a tail risk. Inflation is a constant. (And to pre-add, precious metals haven't historically been a great hedge either, when benchmarked against investing in economic growth)
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > can be extremely hard to physically get to your savings money in a crisis Having spare cash around is never a bad idea. But there are precious few timelines in which the banking system collapses so completely that savings are inaccessible for extended periods (or at all) but paper U.S. dollars continue to hold value.
        alexey-salmin 2y ago
        No one expects it to hold 100% of value, but even 10% of say $50k could be very helpful to live through the few months of the turmoil. Or to get to that foreign real estate which people recommend buying in comments on HN.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > even 10% of say $50k could be very helpful to live through the few months of the turmoil. Or to get to that foreign real estate Genuinely curious for a single example of a collapsing country's fiat currency being useful for extradition. If this is actually your fail case, hold foreign currency.
        alexey-salmin 2y ago
        Well it's one of the tail cases, so all things considered both local currency and foreign currencies are useful, each in it's own quality. So is a foreign currency in a foreign bank.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    - alexey-salmin 2y ago
      We understand, we also understand that all these mechanisms fail every once in a while.
  - eru 2y ago
    > Also feel like we get taxed way more than we should be with many things getting taxed multiple times... Getting taxed multiple times isn't necessarily bad, it's the overall burden (and deadweight loss!) that matters. In any case, you could try moving to a lower tax jurisdiction? (And giving up your American passport, if you have any.)
    - sethammons 2y ago
      Giving up citizenship is also a taxable event
      - eru 2y ago
        Yes, but it's a one-time thing, isn't it?
- csomar 2y ago
  You can have a different law for that: "abandoned property". Essentially, you get the property just by showing up and not suing for it.
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    CF forfeiture laws are in theory supposed to be used against contraband and related materials. Nobody* is going to claim a suitcase with 3 bricks of cocaine and $500k whose owner the police are very anxious to locate. * Nobody with a clue. Petty criminals do sometimes turn up at police stations looking for lost property of this kind and are then surprised to be arrested.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - 1123581321 2y ago
    The law around freshly abandoned property, as declared by the police, would be nearly indistinguishable from reformed civil forfeiture.
deathanatos 2y ago
Should be unconstitutional. In fact I could have sworn there was this amendment specifically about seizures, and failing that, one about due process. If no crime has been committed and/or no charges have been filed or are going to be filed in a timely manner, then I fail to see on what basis the government gets to deprive someone of property.
- jandrewrogers 2y ago
  Several members of the US Supreme Court have already expressed strong skepticism about the Constitutionality of this practice but other parts of the government are very good at ensuring no case ever arrives there for it to be adjudicated. There is a parallel situation with the No Fly List, which is clearly unconstitutional in many cases but the Federal government is adroit at making sure no case with standing makes it to the USSC to be adjudicated, lest they lose this particular weapon.
  - rkagerer 2y ago
    How have they deflected cases? And how is this ongoing? Have they just not yet encountered someone with the means (and strong enough case) to fight it tooth and nail up the courts?
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > how is this ongoing? The language is from Culley, which was decided last year [1]. I haven't seen any evidence that anyone is deflecting cases. Just that our judicial system is slow. [1] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-585_k5fm.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-585_k5fm.pdf
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
      when someone has a strong enough case and means, you take the loss at the trial level (or before by dropping the case). That way the case never makes it to the district or supreme courts that can actually create precedent.
helpfulclippy 2y ago
I think it becomes more clear if we call it by its more traditional name, “robbery.” Unless it is at something like a traffic stop where it is done using the implied or explicit threat of force by a police officer — in which case, it is called “armed robbery.”
- juanani 2y ago
  [dead]
fastball 2y ago
Check out the film "Rebel Ridge" on Netflix if you haven't seen it. Complete fiction but the story is kicked off / revolves around civi forfeiture (and it's a pretty good watch!)

It does have (very very narrow) legitimate purpose, which is problematic abandoned property. Like say your age-of-sail ship has illegal stuff discovered by the customs inspectors, and everyone you can track down insists it isn't theirs. But that ends the moment someone says it's theirs, or there are records pointing to an owner who isn't actively hiding from you. This whole modern "prove where you got it from" bs is just theft.

xbar 2y ago
Nope. It only invites corruption.
tisdadd 2y ago
It is indeed. I know there are not as many who lived through the great depression now, but really cannot blame those who don't trust the banks. Also feel like we get taxed way more than we should be with many things getting taxed multiple times... Going to stop before going full rant. Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around...
- ethbr1 2y ago
  People who don't trust banks don't understand fiat money, fractional reserve banking, and inflationary monetary policy.
  - 1970-01-01 2y ago
    Banks can crash faster than you can adapt. It can be extremely hard to physically get to your savings money in a crisis.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      A bank failure + deposit insurance bust is a tail risk. Inflation is a constant. (And to pre-add, precious metals haven't historically been a great hedge either, when benchmarked against investing in economic growth)
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > can be extremely hard to physically get to your savings money in a crisis Having spare cash around is never a bad idea. But there are precious few timelines in which the banking system collapses so completely that savings are inaccessible for extended periods (or at all) but paper U.S. dollars continue to hold value.
      - alexey-salmin 2y ago
        No one expects it to hold 100% of value, but even 10% of say $50k could be very helpful to live through the few months of the turmoil. Or to get to that foreign real estate which people recommend buying in comments on HN.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > even 10% of say $50k could be very helpful to live through the few months of the turmoil. Or to get to that foreign real estate Genuinely curious for a single example of a collapsing country's fiat currency being useful for extradition. If this is actually your fail case, hold foreign currency.
        alexey-salmin 2y ago
        Well it's one of the tail cases, so all things considered both local currency and foreign currencies are useful, each in it's own quality. So is a foreign currency in a foreign bank.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  - alexey-salmin 2y ago
    We understand, we also understand that all these mechanisms fail every once in a while.
- eru 2y ago
  > Also feel like we get taxed way more than we should be with many things getting taxed multiple times... Getting taxed multiple times isn't necessarily bad, it's the overall burden (and deadweight loss!) that matters. In any case, you could try moving to a lower tax jurisdiction? (And giving up your American passport, if you have any.)
  - sethammons 2y ago
    Giving up citizenship is also a taxable event
    - eru 2y ago
      Yes, but it's a one-time thing, isn't it?
csomar 2y ago
You can have a different law for that: "abandoned property". Essentially, you get the property just by showing up and not suing for it.
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  CF forfeiture laws are in theory supposed to be used against contraband and related materials. Nobody* is going to claim a suitcase with 3 bricks of cocaine and $500k whose owner the police are very anxious to locate. * Nobody with a clue. Petty criminals do sometimes turn up at police stations looking for lost property of this kind and are then surprised to be arrested.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- 1123581321 2y ago
  The law around freshly abandoned property, as declared by the police, would be nearly indistinguishable from reformed civil forfeiture.

deathanatos 2y ago

Should be unconstitutional. In fact I could have sworn there was this amendment specifically about seizures, and failing that, one about due process. If no crime has been committed and/or no charges have been filed or are going to be filed in a timely manner, then I fail to see on what basis the government gets to deprive someone of property.

jandrewrogers 2y ago
Several members of the US Supreme Court have already expressed strong skepticism about the Constitutionality of this practice but other parts of the government are very good at ensuring no case ever arrives there for it to be adjudicated. There is a parallel situation with the No Fly List, which is clearly unconstitutional in many cases but the Federal government is adroit at making sure no case with standing makes it to the USSC to be adjudicated, lest they lose this particular weapon.
- rkagerer 2y ago
  How have they deflected cases? And how is this ongoing? Have they just not yet encountered someone with the means (and strong enough case) to fight it tooth and nail up the courts?
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > how is this ongoing? The language is from Culley, which was decided last year [1]. I haven't seen any evidence that anyone is deflecting cases. Just that our judicial system is slow. [1] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-585_k5fm.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-585_k5fm.pdf
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
    when someone has a strong enough case and means, you take the loss at the trial level (or before by dropping the case). That way the case never makes it to the district or supreme courts that can actually create precedent.

helpfulclippy 2y ago

I think it becomes more clear if we call it by its more traditional name, “robbery.” Unless it is at something like a traffic stop where it is done using the implied or explicit threat of force by a police officer — in which case, it is called “armed robbery.”

juanani 2y ago
[dead]

fastball 2y ago

Check out the film "Rebel Ridge" on Netflix if you haven't seen it. Complete fiction but the story is kicked off / revolves around civi forfeiture (and it's a pretty good watch!)