5 ms·

I'm sitting here thinking - man, how is it possible that they can make the best laptop hardware no contest, and yet I still get blurry icons when connecting to

I'm sitting here thinking - man, how is it possible that they can make the best laptop hardware no contest, and yet I still get blurry icons when connecting to a non-retina external display? Something that the cheapest Windows laptop money can buy would do flawlessly? Macs are great and so is macOS, but it's not that good, at the end of the day it's just a computer

MBCook 2y ago
[flagged]
- subjectsigma 2y ago
  I already own two 2560x1440 non-Apple displays that work flawlessly with my Windows PC, they cost $250 apiece, and there is absolutely no way in hell I am selling them and buying a $1599 display because Apple can't fix their egregiously bad software. I'll just live with slightly blurry icons whenever I want to use them with my Mac.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    There are non-Apple options for FAR less.
    - subjectsigma 2y ago
      Yes, but these are the ones I already own and that’s also completely besides the point, which is that they look great on Ubuntu, Windows 10/11, and pretty much every OS that’s not macOS
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  > why the hell are you using a non-retina display? Probably because for the price of a 27" 5k apple display I can buy four 27" 4k displays with money left over for the VESA mounting.
matthew-wegner 2y ago
I realize it's a very Apple ecosystem thing to shore up gaps in macOS with 3rd party apps, but BetterDisplay can do this for you: https://github.com/waydabber/BetterDisplay https://github.com/waydabber/BetterDisplay (Run non-retina displays at 2X frame buffer for proper anti-aliasing)
- DaiPlusPlus 2y ago
  > I realize it's a very Apple ecosystem thing to shore up gaps in macOS with 3rd party apps ...for now; until Apple disallows any kind of system extension or desktop UI enhancements.
- veber-alex 2y ago
  This is a must have app for macOS.
  - zuhsetaqi 2y ago
    Only when using non highres monitors. I'm using 2 4K LG 27" monitors and they work just fine
- subjectsigma 2y ago
  Thanks for the advice! I tried downloading this app and set both displays to HiDPI and UI elements seemed to sharpen, but certain icons are still blurry. I didn't see any options related to setting the framebuffer, I assume this happens automatically. Will keep experimenting...
  - seec 2y ago
    I have not looked very hard but I don't think this app fixes the fundamental issues: which is the removal of proper sub-pixel antialiasing for anything that isn't considered a retina class display by their standard. This sort of app might get a better output by forcing the 2x rendering and then scaling it to the native display resolution but it cannot possibly be of the same quality as what we had before, unless they rewrote rendering or something like that. As far as I know there are 2 "real solutions": you buy a display that is retina class in one of their historically supported resolutions or you accept to lose a bit of desktop space by running a "sub-retina" class display at x2. For example, a 27 inch "4k" (they are 3840x2160) display will get you a desktop space of 1920/1080 in HiDPI mode. That is sad because a 27-inch iMac from the early 2000 had more desktop space, an image not as sharp but it wasn't bad as long as they kept sub-pixel antialiasing. As far as I'm concerned, it is that way because they went the lazy way around implementing HiDPI and being able to market it like they were so much better than Microsoft. But that only works if you solely buy their hardware because nobody followed them on the desktop specs (even though it's slowly coming lately it seems). This issue in my opinion is a testament of how much anti-consumer and disdainful Apple is; because it couldn't possible have cost them a lot of engineering to be able to support both, it is clearly for their bottom line and that's it.
macrolime 2y ago
Because they want people to buy and use Apple monitors, not third party ones.
- zuhsetaqi 2y ago
  Third parties can easily just use the same resolutions Apple uses for their monitors and they would work exactly the same
  - kstrauser 2y ago
    Yep. I have a 4K monitor with decent specs that you can get on Amazon for about $250 today. There’s not a hardware lock-in on monitors.
NotPractical 2y ago
What does "retina" mean exactly? From what I can tell it's a general Apple marketing term rather than something concrete. Are 4K monitors unsupported by macOS? I've been using one with my MacBook for a while and I haven't noticed blurriness.
- subjectsigma 2y ago
  AFAICT “Retina” is a marketing term used by Apple to refer to their first party displays with high pixel density. I use a QHD display with much lower pixel density and get blurry icons. Since writing the comment I realized I was using a very specific term in a general way, which is technically incorrect, but I thought that’s what the problem was. From reading the comments in these threads and some additional resources, it does seem that the problem is not whether or not the display is “retina” per say, but that macOS is designed to run on high density displays and can have problems with low density ones. My mistake I guess. I think the point that Apple should have better support for a wider range of displays still stands. It is not unreasonable to want your general purpose, professional-grade computer which costs thousands to work correctly with a variety of displays and resolutions, especially when lesser machines do it better. At this point I’m just whinging bitterly though, the blurry icons are not the end of the world and buying new displays or a new computer just to fix them would be silly.
  - NotPractical 2y ago
    I agree, I think 4K should be enough of an investment to appease the Apple gods!
- atonse 2y ago
  Jobs explained it when he first debuted it. It's called that because the pixels are small/dense enough that you can basically not distinguish pixels anymore. So on phones it has usually been about 300dpi. On laptops and desktops it's been something over 220dpi.

MBCook 2y ago

[flagged]

subjectsigma 2y ago
I already own two 2560x1440 non-Apple displays that work flawlessly with my Windows PC, they cost $250 apiece, and there is absolutely no way in hell I am selling them and buying a $1599 display because Apple can't fix their egregiously bad software. I'll just live with slightly blurry icons whenever I want to use them with my Mac.
- MBCook 2y ago
  There are non-Apple options for FAR less.
  - subjectsigma 2y ago
    Yes, but these are the ones I already own and that’s also completely besides the point, which is that they look great on Ubuntu, Windows 10/11, and pretty much every OS that’s not macOS
jazzyjackson 2y ago
> why the hell are you using a non-retina display? Probably because for the price of a 27" 5k apple display I can buy four 27" 4k displays with money left over for the VESA mounting.

matthew-wegner 2y ago

I realize it's a very Apple ecosystem thing to shore up gaps in macOS with 3rd party apps, but BetterDisplay can do this for you: https://github.com/waydabber/BetterDisplay https://github.com/waydabber/BetterDisplay (Run non-retina displays at 2X frame buffer for proper anti-aliasing)

DaiPlusPlus 2y ago
> I realize it's a very Apple ecosystem thing to shore up gaps in macOS with 3rd party apps ...for now; until Apple disallows any kind of system extension or desktop UI enhancements.
veber-alex 2y ago
This is a must have app for macOS.
- zuhsetaqi 2y ago
  Only when using non highres monitors. I'm using 2 4K LG 27" monitors and they work just fine
subjectsigma 2y ago
Thanks for the advice! I tried downloading this app and set both displays to HiDPI and UI elements seemed to sharpen, but certain icons are still blurry. I didn't see any options related to setting the framebuffer, I assume this happens automatically. Will keep experimenting...
- seec 2y ago
  I have not looked very hard but I don't think this app fixes the fundamental issues: which is the removal of proper sub-pixel antialiasing for anything that isn't considered a retina class display by their standard. This sort of app might get a better output by forcing the 2x rendering and then scaling it to the native display resolution but it cannot possibly be of the same quality as what we had before, unless they rewrote rendering or something like that. As far as I know there are 2 "real solutions": you buy a display that is retina class in one of their historically supported resolutions or you accept to lose a bit of desktop space by running a "sub-retina" class display at x2. For example, a 27 inch "4k" (they are 3840x2160) display will get you a desktop space of 1920/1080 in HiDPI mode. That is sad because a 27-inch iMac from the early 2000 had more desktop space, an image not as sharp but it wasn't bad as long as they kept sub-pixel antialiasing. As far as I'm concerned, it is that way because they went the lazy way around implementing HiDPI and being able to market it like they were so much better than Microsoft. But that only works if you solely buy their hardware because nobody followed them on the desktop specs (even though it's slowly coming lately it seems). This issue in my opinion is a testament of how much anti-consumer and disdainful Apple is; because it couldn't possible have cost them a lot of engineering to be able to support both, it is clearly for their bottom line and that's it.

macrolime 2y ago

Because they want people to buy and use Apple monitors, not third party ones.

zuhsetaqi 2y ago
Third parties can easily just use the same resolutions Apple uses for their monitors and they would work exactly the same
- kstrauser 2y ago
  Yep. I have a 4K monitor with decent specs that you can get on Amazon for about $250 today. There’s not a hardware lock-in on monitors.

NotPractical 2y ago

What does "retina" mean exactly? From what I can tell it's a general Apple marketing term rather than something concrete. Are 4K monitors unsupported by macOS? I've been using one with my MacBook for a while and I haven't noticed blurriness.

subjectsigma 2y ago
AFAICT “Retina” is a marketing term used by Apple to refer to their first party displays with high pixel density. I use a QHD display with much lower pixel density and get blurry icons. Since writing the comment I realized I was using a very specific term in a general way, which is technically incorrect, but I thought that’s what the problem was. From reading the comments in these threads and some additional resources, it does seem that the problem is not whether or not the display is “retina” per say, but that macOS is designed to run on high density displays and can have problems with low density ones. My mistake I guess. I think the point that Apple should have better support for a wider range of displays still stands. It is not unreasonable to want your general purpose, professional-grade computer which costs thousands to work correctly with a variety of displays and resolutions, especially when lesser machines do it better. At this point I’m just whinging bitterly though, the blurry icons are not the end of the world and buying new displays or a new computer just to fix them would be silly.
- NotPractical 2y ago
  I agree, I think 4K should be enough of an investment to appease the Apple gods!
atonse 2y ago
Jobs explained it when he first debuted it. It's called that because the pixels are small/dense enough that you can basically not distinguish pixels anymore. So on phones it has usually been about 300dpi. On laptops and desktops it's been something over 220dpi.