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Linus Torvalds muses about maintainer gray hairs and the next 'King of Linux'
- bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago[flagged]
- throwaway98797 2y ago[flagged]
- wholinator2 2y ago[flagged]
- ddtaylor 2y agoHe has a red stapler on his desk I think
- hypeatei 2y agoGood to see that he's still optimistic about Rust in the kernel. There was a small crowd when the drama was happening suggesting that Rust devs should just go write their own Linux-compatible kernel somewhere else which I found... insane. It's better to iterate and improve existing systems IMO.
- coldpie 2y ago> There was a small crowd when the drama was happening suggesting that Rust devs should just go write their own Linux-compatible kernel somewhere else which I found... insane. One of the most important skills I found in open source development is separating technical arguments from religious arguments, and choosing to simply ignore the latter. You can spend all your time having the religious debates and feeling very productive while actually getting absolutely nothing done. Learning to recognize the distinction and, crucially, not engage at all when someone is coming at you with a religious argument is incredibly valuable for anyone who is or wants to be in a leadership-ish role in that kind of environment. You've got better things to do with your time than explain to someone why building a whole separate kernel is a stupid idea.
- mont_tag 2y ago"Not engaging at all" allows the engaging group to completely take over and expunge their opposition. The Python Software Foundation is an example. They have multiple former directors banned or resigning. They've defunded African Pycons that won't embrace certain ideologies. PSF employees and work group members are being purged of anyone not fully on board with the new ruling party. The discussion forums are censored and long-term contributors are afraid to post. In general, in democratic organizations it is a failing strategy to not engage in arguments or to boycott elections. It is a recipe for an imbalance that is almost impossible to correct later. So, I respectfully disagree with your suggestion to not engage at all.
- lifty 2y agoReally curious, what ideology did the defunded African Pycons fail to embrace?
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y agoIt's often queer stuff that gets called "ideology" by it's opponents so I'm guessing it's this https://pythonafrica.blogspot.com/2023/12/an-open-letter-to-python-software_5.html?m=1 https://pythonafrica.blogspot.com/2023/12/an-open-letter-to-... > We understand that the argument against support for DjangoCon Africa was that the host country, Tanzania, is not a safe place for the LGBTQIA+ community. That's not as simple as "woke ideology" though. If you don't find the convention, Africa doesn't get a pycon. If you do fund it, you're funding something that excludes queer people. Without knowing any details, I guess they should have been more eager to fund it. then at least some people would benefit
- AnonCoward42 2y ago[flagged]
- OKRainbowKid 2y ago
- tmtvl 2y agoIt's way better to iterate and improve existing systems. But you need to do so in the context of those projects: in Linux when a maintainer wants to make a change to a system they are maintaining, they have to provide patches for other systems which are affected by the change. So if Rust lands in any section of the kernel, then the maintainers of related systems will either have to: A: never make any changes to the system they are maintaining, or B: learn Rust. Neither of those options seem reasonable, so it's a difficult problem. So if the contingent of people who want to see Rust in the kernel is large enough it may be better for them to fork the kernel, as it's unlikely that advocacy will have enough of an effect.
- xelamonster 2y agoIt doesn't seem reasonable to expect a developer to learn a new programming language? Staying on top of constantly changing tools is part of the job.
- ApolloFortyNine 2y agoThey're doing it for free.
- rightbyte 2y agoWhy? Linux is 30 years old by now. When did they switch from g89 to a g11? Like last year or something. Imagine the churn if they would have changed their ways whenever there was some new hot thing. And this is applicable to most devs too.
- xelamonster 2y agoI respect the conservative approach for the kernel but I think a big part of the disconnect on this is right there in the continued treatment of Rust as the "hot new thing" and yet another fad. To me it's much more than that. I might not have pushed back even a couple years ago but the language has been around nearly ten years now, has undeniable advantages (and disadvantages of course as with anything), and it's only gaining in popularity. Too much of the opposition feels like they're just hoping the movement fizzles out so they don't have to seriously engage with it, and I don't believe that's going to happen. Genuinely curious because I haven't been around so long, have there been previous pushes for the inclusion of other languages in the kernel? Anything even close to the level we're seeing now with Rust?
- skyfaller 2y agoWhile I'm not sure I agree with the arguments, I don't think the arguments for starting over from scratch are insane: https://drewdevault.com/2024/08/30/2024-08-30-Rust-in-Linux-revisited.html https://drewdevault.com/2024/08/30/2024-08-30-Rust-in-Linux-... The core argument is that attempts to convert the Linux kernel to Rust are burning out the people putting in that work. The choice might not be between Rust in Linux or a new kernel, but between burned out devs failing to put Rust in Linux or a new Linux-compatible kernel written from scratch in Rust.
- baq 2y agoThere is no such thing as a Linux-compatible kernel. There's only Linux. Linux is not even compatible with itself, it's only compatible with its major version number. The argument may have been 'go pound sand', that's what it means.
- sudobash1 2y agoI'd say that isn't true. The Linux version number is somewhat arbitrary, and does not denote incompatibility. And from the view of userspace, the Linux ABI is rather backwards compatible. Also, WSL1 and some BSDs are examples of Linux compatibility.
- baq 2y agoYes, the driver interface may or may not change, nobody knows where and when. That's a feature of the Linux versioning scheme and driver HAL policy. You can roll your own userspace-Linux-compatible kernel and it's going to be a toy until you develop drivers for it, which won't ever happen. > Also, WSL1 and some BSDs are examples of Linux compatibility. Yes, and they suffer from either performance or lack of drivers, hence WSL2 running a real Linux with some dark magic to share hardware and network, sort of. Surely you don't mean this as an argument in favor of rolling your own Linux-compatible kernel?
- oldpersonintx 2y ago[dead]
- cpach 2y agoI believe this is the video that the article summarizes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM_8UOPFpqE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM_8UOPFpqE
- cabidaher 2y agoWasn't this posted here a few days ago?
- lowdownbutter 2y agoWelcome to HN.
- cpach 2y agoAFAICT there where (at least) two recent events where Torvalds had a chat with Hohndel. I) KubeCon and Open Source Summit China (Hong Kong, 2024-08-23) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41355731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41355731 – posted to HN on 2024-08-26, 123 comments. II) Open Source Summit Europe (Vienna, 2024-09-16) I.e. this post. This talk was also referred in an article from The Register, and that was posted on HN about 23 hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41593275 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41593275 (11 comments) It also looks like the current post (i.e. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41559404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41559404) was originally submitted four days ago, and then reached the front page today via HN’s second-chance pool[0]. (This talk from Open Source Summit Europe has been submitted a bunch of times, but some of the submissions yielded very few comments.) [0] See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308 for more info about the second-chance pool.
- cabidaher 2y agoThank you for your reply. I had suspected it was the second chance pool but I had never seen that mechanism in action so I thought it'd get re-posted, not that it would appear as if it had just been posted. I had read it when it first appeared.
- cpach 2y agoYeah that part of the second-chance pool is a bit confusing, it has tripped me up a few times as well. Pro-tip: If you look below the submission title you will see a text saying “3 days ago” or similar. Hover with the cursor over that text, and you will see the original publication timestamp. (Or use view source in your browser.)
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y agoI never would have thought that he would be the voice of reason, in any language other than C (ANSI C -not C++). He may just be one of the best C programmers around, and has always been a ferocious advocate for it. Rust is not my language, but it really seems to be a legitimate addition to the system programming toolbox, and that seems to be his PoV. I liked the interview. I haven't always been a fan of his pithy approach to interpersonal relationships, but I have always had tremendous respect for his technical acumen. This has given me a bit more personal respect for him.
- BearOso 2y agoRust's main problem is that libc is effectively the system API on POSIX. There's a major barrier to interacting with other libraries, particularly safely. There's also a ton of C++ libraries, like Qt, which aren't easy to do FFI bindings for. The kernel has its own set of API primitives because it can't use user space libraries. That means the ecosystem is tiny, and rust can bring its unique advantage when experimenting with secondary languages in the kernel.
- jll29 2y ago> Rust's main problem is that libc is effectively the system API on POSIX. True, that is what makes things harder for Rust in practice. But interestingly, theoretically speaking it's more C's problem rather than Rust's - a legacy effect originating from the UNIX-C co-evolution. Good design would command a stricter separation of concerns/sub-systems (some LISP machine people will disagree, and I say it because there are a ton of them on HN, of course).
- actionfromafar 2y agoA huge chunk of C's problems in the wild is due to the unfortunate string conventions and library. Just fixing that alone, would make C much more robust in practice. Imagine a libc with actually sane strings, and a tiny tweak to the language so "some string" produces such a sane string, whatever it may be. Maybe an extension could be @"sane string".
- bschmidt1 2y agoThe next Linux King will be happily merging pull requests until one day his keyboard will begin to speak to him... "Arthas..."
- vcdimension 2y agoSomeone should train an LLM on all the kernel documentation, code, mailing lists, etc.
- JohnMakin 2y agoI want to posit a new "law" like "Godwin's Law," which would roughly state "Any sufficiently advanced discussion about operating systems will devolve into a C vs Rust debate."
- RobotToaster 2y agoMy prediction: after Linus dies linux will be like Yugoslavia after Tito.
- JohnMakin 2y agoHopefully with much less bloodshed, but yea, when benevolent dictators die, there are rarely people who step up to replace them who are also benevolent.
- rollcat 2y agoEasy, we wake up one of Theo de Raadt's clones to take over.
- throwoutway 2y agoI got to say, I've never actually thought what the Linux world would be like after Linus dies. I am imagining an empty void
- cozzyd 2y agoDoesn't he have kids?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- knowitnone 2y agobest way to compromise the world is to become a linux maintainer. May take a couple of years but if you are state-sponsored, you (with the help of your team) can contribute so many great patches you'll become respected within a year, take control of a subsystem in a few.