6 ms·

Thanks for this. I really want more software engineers to see the benefits of unions. Yes we’re paid well but there’s more to life than a paycheck

toomuchtodo 2y ago
From first principles, it is the only way for these workers to have more agency and not be treated as disposal feedstock, and as a high empathy human, I would like them to have more agency and be less controlled (if they would like it; the choice is theirs).
snapcaster 2y ago
What do you envision a union doing for software engineers? like what's the 3 sentence pitch for joining?
- LaffertyDev 2y ago
  "A union of Software Engineers lets us collectively bargain for better working conditions, such as flexible working locations, reducing PTO request denials, and work-life balance conditions."
- Clent 2y ago
  Look at how well you're being treated now without a union. Look at how well union workers are treated versus their no union worker equivalents. Imagine how much better you'd be treated if there was a union versus your current no union status.
  - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
    I'm pretty confident that the vast majority of union workers are expected to work from their employer's business premises. Workers should unionize if they're being mistreated, but it's not a magic wand that means I can get whatever working conditions I'd like.
    - hughesjj 2y ago
      How many professional unions are for jobs that can be done from home in the first place? I don't think teachers, cops, sanitation workers, or iron workers can realistically do their jobs at home
    - ketzo 2y ago
      US government agencies still have some of the lowest RTO rates in the country (compared to other employers) precisely because of federal employee unions.
    - nxobject 2y ago
      I don't understand why this has been so downvoted – although it might be true for now, there's a deeper truth that it's true that any union benefit has to be fought for and constantly defended between negotiations. (Which is why unions usually have legislative and political advocacy arms to codify these benefits – so they don't have to waste barganing power on them.)
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - Lord_Zero 2y ago
    Allowing people to work from home, and then yanking that back even after studies prove happier workers and better productivity is mistreatment in my opinion. Especially when it's malicious and arbitrary when they do it in hopes that you will quit. Our quality of life plummets when we're dragged away from our families and forced into long shitty commutes to sit on zoom in a cubicle all day.
  - morgante 2y ago
    There are some unionized tech workers. I would never want their jobs over mine.
- matrix87 2y ago
  No more unpaid overtime. The right to ignore work messages outside of business hours. No more noncompetes It's a race to the bottom because of the visa worker situation. People will wake themselves up at 3AM on a saturday because shitty tooling made something in prod break. Many of my friends are visa workers, but if you're working with people living in fear of deportation, it tends to fuck up the work life boundary across the board
  - zamalek 2y ago
    > No more noncompetes FWIW those were recently completely outlawed: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/04/ftc-announces-rule-banning-noncompetes https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/04/.... In theory you can happily sign a noncompete and promptly ignore it. Unlawful contracts are unenforceable. That does not diminish the value of unions, though.
    - matrix87 2y ago
      I'm aware of the FTC rule, but that's subject to change depending on who's currently in the white house Also some of Harris's donors are pushing her to get rid of Lina Khan. Even if she wins, the rule might not stay around
      - analogwzrd 2y ago
        That Chevron Deference decision might change the authority that the FTC has in interpreting that.
      - hughesjj 2y ago
        Lina Khan is like 90% of the reason I'm enthused by Biden (now Harris) and it would be an even bigger tragedy than when Google kicked her out of New America. I sincerely hope they don't do that, given I'm far from alone in admiration of Lina
    - papercrane 2y ago
      The FTC decision has already been halted by a Texas court nationwide. It's probably going to make it's way to the Supreme Court eventually, but given the courts recent rulings I suspect the FTC rule won't survive. https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2024/09/05/ftc-noncompete-rule-is-set-aside-but-appeal-is-expected-and-states-may-act/ https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2024/09/05/ftc-noncompete-ru...
- Barrin92 2y ago
  >like what's the 3 sentence pitch for joining control your workplace. Same reason for joining a union anywhere. Collective bargaining gives workers agency and real power, which any free person should prefer over sitting in a golden cage.
- tech_ken 2y ago
  Mine is: "Why negotiate alone? Your employer has an army of lawyers and HR types to prepare your contract. If you and a bunch of coworkers pool your resources you can benefit mightily by hiring someone to sit on the other side of that table."
  - adamtaylor_13 2y ago
    I'd say because it's to your advantage to be better than your peers at negotiation. There's nothing but upside for you.
    - ignaloidas 2y ago
      So why not bring your better negotiation abilities to your peers? Collectively the bargaining power is way larger, and as such the upside as well.
    - coldpie 2y ago
      Your peers aren't the ones making nine figures and buying yachts and vacation homes off the results of the work you're doing. Look up, not sideways, to find the mis-allocated resources that you're after.
      - adamtaylor_13 2y ago
        I see no misallocated resources. I enjoy exploiting the system that enables the yacht-havers, because then I too can have a yacht. And while I get the feeling that most HN commenters feel some sort of misplaced injustice due to this, but the thrill of the game is part of the fun to me. I’d rather that than factory work where I can guarantee my skills will never position me to rise above my station. The tech industry is so unique in this and it blows my mind how people just want to throw it all away.
    - consteval 2y ago
      Incorrect, as you have no leverage as an individual employee. The less resources you pool together, the less negotiation power you have. What you're describing is an idealized free labor market. In actuality, you are not in fair competition with other laborers because the labor market isn't a free market.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
kerkeslager 2y ago
And, just because we're paid well doesn't mean we can't be paid better.
whywhywhywhy 2y ago
> I really want more software engineers to see the benefits of unions. How would a profession where your value to the company scales very directly with your talents and your pay can be very connected to those talents and has a very high celling benefit from being judged as a unit with the least competent instead of an individual on just your own contribution.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  > How would a profession where your value to the company scales very directly with your talents and your pay can be very connected to those talents and has a very high celling benefit from being judged as a unit with the least competent instead of an individual on just your own contribution. Your mental model operates under the assumption that you are paid for your individual performance. This leads you to believe organizing is suboptimal. But, the data does not show individual performance is tied to compensation, therefore you're arguing against a model based on a meritocracy fallacy and an incomplete mental model. You might also overweight your own performance vs that of others, in the same way that a majority of drivers believe themselves to be better than the average driver. Understandably, it is hard to internalize that we are not special, that performance is hard to measure, and that organizations communicate something different than reality. "Show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome." "I am a gambler and I don't want my upside restricted" is more honest than "the profession shouldn't organize because a small cohort will miss out on outsized comp that they can work hard and are recognized for." Also, importantly, you asked "how would a profession ... benefit" when you really mean just the folks at the top of the income distribution, not the entire profession. One might also consider that pay transparency laws exist because of well known and researched pay inequity issues across wide swaths of the economy. > When asked about the rationale for the size of their paycheck, both workers and executives overwhelmingly point to one factor: Individual performance. And yet research shows that this belief is false and largely based on three myths people have about their pay: that you can separate it from the performance of others; that your job has an objective, agreed-upon definition of performance; and that paying for individual performance improves organizational outcomes. Instead, your pay is defined by four organizational forces: power, inertia, mimicry, and equity. The bad news is that these dynamics have reshaped the economy to benefit the few at the expense of the many. The good news is that, if pay isn’t some predetermined, rigid reflection of performance, then we can imagine a different world in terms of who is paid what, and how. -- Jake Rosenfeld, a top scholar of the US labor market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_meritocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_meritocracy https://hbr.org/2021/02/youre-not-paid-based-on-your-performance https://hbr.org/2021/02/youre-not-paid-based-on-your-perform...
flanked-evergl 2y ago
[flagged]
- tapland 2y ago
  Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. Now Boss makes 10 dollars, on HN that’s fine.
  - flanked-evergl 2y ago
    Personally, I think we should abolish the professional management class.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      So you think unions are greedy, but want to abolish the professional management class...with nothing? Have you considered that, without some sort of organization, you are powerless and have no ability to effect change? Also, have you considered that unions aren't greedy, but simply negotiating a fair value for their labor, and your mental model reacts negatively for some reason due?
      - flanked-evergl 2y ago
        I don't think they can objectively measure the fair value for their labour. I think I trust the Biden administration way more on this, and they have made it clear that the economic situation of every single American is better today than it has ever been in the past for any country in the world. That to me seems significantly more objective.
- wasteduniverse 2y ago
  [dead]
- ctoth 2y ago
  > striking in the best economy in the world and in the history of the world Isn't this the best time to do it? It seems like if workers did the opposite you'd be complaining that they were striking when conditions were bad and hurting the company!
mariusor 2y ago
My company tried at the start of the year to get everyone back in the office. The worker's council (which is not entirely a union, but very close to it) negotiated for the everyone a three day a week RTO. I refused to go back for those three days in the hope that nobody who matters will notice, yet they made line managers snitch on people and I was fired with notice because the agreement with the worker's council was "legally binding" and no exceptions could be made. So for me personally the involvement of the union sealed my fate into unemployment. Unions are not a panacea, it leaves individuals without anything to bargain outside of the lines of agreements already established, and while some professions might benefit from them, I think unions for high skill jobs are not a good solution.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

From first principles, it is the only way for these workers to have more agency and not be treated as disposal feedstock, and as a high empathy human, I would like them to have more agency and be less controlled (if they would like it; the choice is theirs).

snapcaster 2y ago

What do you envision a union doing for software engineers? like what's the 3 sentence pitch for joining?

LaffertyDev 2y ago
"A union of Software Engineers lets us collectively bargain for better working conditions, such as flexible working locations, reducing PTO request denials, and work-life balance conditions."
Clent 2y ago
Look at how well you're being treated now without a union. Look at how well union workers are treated versus their no union worker equivalents. Imagine how much better you'd be treated if there was a union versus your current no union status.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  I'm pretty confident that the vast majority of union workers are expected to work from their employer's business premises. Workers should unionize if they're being mistreated, but it's not a magic wand that means I can get whatever working conditions I'd like.
  - hughesjj 2y ago
    How many professional unions are for jobs that can be done from home in the first place? I don't think teachers, cops, sanitation workers, or iron workers can realistically do their jobs at home
  - ketzo 2y ago
    US government agencies still have some of the lowest RTO rates in the country (compared to other employers) precisely because of federal employee unions.
  - nxobject 2y ago
    I don't understand why this has been so downvoted – although it might be true for now, there's a deeper truth that it's true that any union benefit has to be fought for and constantly defended between negotiations. (Which is why unions usually have legislative and political advocacy arms to codify these benefits – so they don't have to waste barganing power on them.)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Lord_Zero 2y ago
  Allowing people to work from home, and then yanking that back even after studies prove happier workers and better productivity is mistreatment in my opinion. Especially when it's malicious and arbitrary when they do it in hopes that you will quit. Our quality of life plummets when we're dragged away from our families and forced into long shitty commutes to sit on zoom in a cubicle all day.
- morgante 2y ago
  There are some unionized tech workers. I would never want their jobs over mine.
matrix87 2y ago
No more unpaid overtime. The right to ignore work messages outside of business hours. No more noncompetes It's a race to the bottom because of the visa worker situation. People will wake themselves up at 3AM on a saturday because shitty tooling made something in prod break. Many of my friends are visa workers, but if you're working with people living in fear of deportation, it tends to fuck up the work life boundary across the board
- zamalek 2y ago
  > No more noncompetes FWIW those were recently completely outlawed: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/04/ftc-announces-rule-banning-noncompetes https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/04/.... In theory you can happily sign a noncompete and promptly ignore it. Unlawful contracts are unenforceable. That does not diminish the value of unions, though.
  - matrix87 2y ago
    I'm aware of the FTC rule, but that's subject to change depending on who's currently in the white house Also some of Harris's donors are pushing her to get rid of Lina Khan. Even if she wins, the rule might not stay around
    - analogwzrd 2y ago
      That Chevron Deference decision might change the authority that the FTC has in interpreting that.
    - hughesjj 2y ago
      Lina Khan is like 90% of the reason I'm enthused by Biden (now Harris) and it would be an even bigger tragedy than when Google kicked her out of New America. I sincerely hope they don't do that, given I'm far from alone in admiration of Lina
  - papercrane 2y ago
    The FTC decision has already been halted by a Texas court nationwide. It's probably going to make it's way to the Supreme Court eventually, but given the courts recent rulings I suspect the FTC rule won't survive. https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2024/09/05/ftc-noncompete-rule-is-set-aside-but-appeal-is-expected-and-states-may-act/ https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2024/09/05/ftc-noncompete-ru...
Barrin92 2y ago
>like what's the 3 sentence pitch for joining control your workplace. Same reason for joining a union anywhere. Collective bargaining gives workers agency and real power, which any free person should prefer over sitting in a golden cage.
tech_ken 2y ago
Mine is: "Why negotiate alone? Your employer has an army of lawyers and HR types to prepare your contract. If you and a bunch of coworkers pool your resources you can benefit mightily by hiring someone to sit on the other side of that table."
- adamtaylor_13 2y ago
  I'd say because it's to your advantage to be better than your peers at negotiation. There's nothing but upside for you.
  - ignaloidas 2y ago
    So why not bring your better negotiation abilities to your peers? Collectively the bargaining power is way larger, and as such the upside as well.
  - coldpie 2y ago
    Your peers aren't the ones making nine figures and buying yachts and vacation homes off the results of the work you're doing. Look up, not sideways, to find the mis-allocated resources that you're after.
    - adamtaylor_13 2y ago
      I see no misallocated resources. I enjoy exploiting the system that enables the yacht-havers, because then I too can have a yacht. And while I get the feeling that most HN commenters feel some sort of misplaced injustice due to this, but the thrill of the game is part of the fun to me. I’d rather that than factory work where I can guarantee my skills will never position me to rise above my station. The tech industry is so unique in this and it blows my mind how people just want to throw it all away.
  - consteval 2y ago
    Incorrect, as you have no leverage as an individual employee. The less resources you pool together, the less negotiation power you have. What you're describing is an idealized free labor market. In actuality, you are not in fair competition with other laborers because the labor market isn't a free market.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

kerkeslager 2y ago

And, just because we're paid well doesn't mean we can't be paid better.

whywhywhywhy 2y ago

> I really want more software engineers to see the benefits of unions. How would a profession where your value to the company scales very directly with your talents and your pay can be very connected to those talents and has a very high celling benefit from being judged as a unit with the least competent instead of an individual on just your own contribution.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
> How would a profession where your value to the company scales very directly with your talents and your pay can be very connected to those talents and has a very high celling benefit from being judged as a unit with the least competent instead of an individual on just your own contribution. Your mental model operates under the assumption that you are paid for your individual performance. This leads you to believe organizing is suboptimal. But, the data does not show individual performance is tied to compensation, therefore you're arguing against a model based on a meritocracy fallacy and an incomplete mental model. You might also overweight your own performance vs that of others, in the same way that a majority of drivers believe themselves to be better than the average driver. Understandably, it is hard to internalize that we are not special, that performance is hard to measure, and that organizations communicate something different than reality. "Show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome." "I am a gambler and I don't want my upside restricted" is more honest than "the profession shouldn't organize because a small cohort will miss out on outsized comp that they can work hard and are recognized for." Also, importantly, you asked "how would a profession ... benefit" when you really mean just the folks at the top of the income distribution, not the entire profession. One might also consider that pay transparency laws exist because of well known and researched pay inequity issues across wide swaths of the economy. > When asked about the rationale for the size of their paycheck, both workers and executives overwhelmingly point to one factor: Individual performance. And yet research shows that this belief is false and largely based on three myths people have about their pay: that you can separate it from the performance of others; that your job has an objective, agreed-upon definition of performance; and that paying for individual performance improves organizational outcomes. Instead, your pay is defined by four organizational forces: power, inertia, mimicry, and equity. The bad news is that these dynamics have reshaped the economy to benefit the few at the expense of the many. The good news is that, if pay isn’t some predetermined, rigid reflection of performance, then we can imagine a different world in terms of who is paid what, and how. -- Jake Rosenfeld, a top scholar of the US labor market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_meritocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_meritocracy https://hbr.org/2021/02/youre-not-paid-based-on-your-performance https://hbr.org/2021/02/youre-not-paid-based-on-your-perform...

flanked-evergl 2y ago

[flagged]

tapland 2y ago
Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. Now Boss makes 10 dollars, on HN that’s fine.
- flanked-evergl 2y ago
  Personally, I think we should abolish the professional management class.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    So you think unions are greedy, but want to abolish the professional management class...with nothing? Have you considered that, without some sort of organization, you are powerless and have no ability to effect change? Also, have you considered that unions aren't greedy, but simply negotiating a fair value for their labor, and your mental model reacts negatively for some reason due?
    - flanked-evergl 2y ago
      I don't think they can objectively measure the fair value for their labour. I think I trust the Biden administration way more on this, and they have made it clear that the economic situation of every single American is better today than it has ever been in the past for any country in the world. That to me seems significantly more objective.
wasteduniverse 2y ago
[dead]
ctoth 2y ago
> striking in the best economy in the world and in the history of the world Isn't this the best time to do it? It seems like if workers did the opposite you'd be complaining that they were striking when conditions were bad and hurting the company!

mariusor 2y ago

My company tried at the start of the year to get everyone back in the office. The worker's council (which is not entirely a union, but very close to it) negotiated for the everyone a three day a week RTO. I refused to go back for those three days in the hope that nobody who matters will notice, yet they made line managers snitch on people and I was fired with notice because the agreement with the worker's council was "legally binding" and no exceptions could be made. So for me personally the involvement of the union sealed my fate into unemployment. Unions are not a panacea, it leaves individuals without anything to bargain outside of the lines of agreements already established, and while some professions might benefit from them, I think unions for high skill jobs are not a good solution.