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This is precisely what would have happened if Apple had gotten away with their distributed image hashing scheme. Only in that case the falsely accused would be

This is precisely what would have happened if Apple had gotten away with their distributed image hashing scheme. Only in that case the falsely accused would be sent immediately through the justice system and forced to spend a fortune to defend themselves on the assumption that they were hiding the evidence.

scblock 2y ago
Citation needed.
- ketzo 2y ago
  The NYT published a very well-reported case (two cases, actually) of Google doing this more than two years ago. This is not a hypothetical -- this is already happening. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveillance-toddler-photo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveil...
  - alexey-salmin 2y ago
    A possibility of loosing access to a 20 years old Google account is quite disturbing. I know it's possible to setup a sync of Google drive to a local NAS, I wonder if the same can be done with Gmail archives. Then there's a problem of loosing access to all linked accounts on other services. What can be done about those, switching them to Proton mail.preemptively? Life without SSO is annoying.
    - calgoo 2y ago
      You can setup a forwarder that sends the email to another account, or just use a sync / download script/app.
    - dotancohen 2y ago
      I personally access my Gmail account through Thunderbird. My entire history, dating to April 2004, is in there.
    - romwell 2y ago
      > I wonder if the same can be done with Gmail archives. That's called "using an email client" to access email. The way it originally worked, you know, and still does[1]. I use Vivaldi browser, which has a built-in mail client[2]. You can use Mozilla Thunderbird[3], or (gasp) Outlook. All of them allow you to maintain a complete, offline, up-to-date copy of your mailbox, which you can export and back up if needs be. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Message_Access_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Message_Access_Protoc... [2] https://vivaldi.com/features/mail/ https://vivaldi.com/features/mail/ [3] https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/ https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/
      - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
        When my account was closed by an ISP, Thunderbird (unexpectedly for me) mirrored the lack of access to the IMAP folders and deleted all my local mail. Fortunately this was a temporary issue that I was able to recover from. Apps like imap-backup (https://github.com/joeyates/imap-backup https://github.com/joeyates/imap-backup) allow retaining IMAP data. In short, don't rely on TB to retain IMAP data, (like Dropbox) it is not a backup and IME will sync data losses, deleting local data if it is no longer accessible on the server. Take care.
        romwell 2y ago
        >When my account was closed by an ISP, Thunderbird (unexpectedly for me) mirrored the lack of access to the IMAP folders and deleted all my local mail. Fortunately this was a temporary issue that I was able to recover from. This is absolutely ridiculous of Thunderbird. That said: 1. As you said, like Dropbox, it's a local mirror, not a backup. Someone gaining access to your email and mass-deleting everything would delete your local copy too. A an actual backup of Thunderbird mail files would accomplish a backup. 2. Did your ISP somehow allow Thunderbird to log into the mailbox and gave it empty content? Or did they delete content before killing IMAP sessions? If so, it's outright malicious. Otherwise, Thunderbird shouldn't have deleted anything. 3. Having an always-on desktop box with a mail client that gets all email once a week is a lazy way to decrease the chances of being affected by something like that. Having a script that copies mailbox data into another folder (named according to date) is, well, an actual backup.
    - lazide 2y ago
      Google.com/takeout It will dump your Gmail data into a mbox file, which is reasonably well supported.
3ln00b 2y ago
Already happened with me, my Amazon account is essentially locked. I changed my phone number and don't have access to my old number anymore and the existing number is apparently associated with some other Amazon account so they can't do anything about it. I stopped using Amazon altogether, I just request my brother to order stuff I want.
- unixhero 2y ago
  But get a burner phone and set up a new account then???
  - 3ln00b 2y ago
    That was a burner phone number and they're illegal in my country now.
    - literalAardvark 2y ago
      No they're not. Like, sure, you might need to register your name on it, but that doesn't influence the outcome of signing up for Amazon with it.
    - esperent 2y ago
      I travel quite a bit and in most countries I'm required to show my passport to get a sim card. However, in several countries I've bought at least 4 or 5 sim cards by now (non tourist sims I mean) so there doesn't seem to be a limit on how many numbers you can have, they just want each number to be linked to a real person. Of course it may be different in some countries, but it's worth checking to be sure.
- aussieguy1234 2y ago
  I have an esim on my phone which has its own number. I only turn it on if some services asks for a phone number so I don't have to give my main number. Its on a cheap yearly plan, very low data and calls included but I won't be using these.
agilob 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computers_Don%27t_Argue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computers_Don%27t_Argue
yapyap 2y ago
google actually has done this with google images & a man who needed to text his doctor (sensitive) images
theshrike79 2y ago
Nope, Apple's system was based on a list of KNOWN CSAM hashes, not some AI algorithm. Also it mathematically required multiple local hits before anything would've been sent to Apple. And even at that point an actual human would've checked the image(s) (reduced quality versions) before any action is taken. So even if you would've managed to trigger the system multiple times on someone's phone with hash collisions that actually are pictures of kittens, the most you've done is slightly inconvenience a low-paid image checker in a cheap call center.
BlueTemplar 2y ago
What do you mean ? And in the actual justice system, there's a presumption of innocence. As for platforms, that's why in the EU big ones must engage with mediators. (Though IMHO it's better to just avoid them.)

scblock 2y ago

Citation needed.

ketzo 2y ago
The NYT published a very well-reported case (two cases, actually) of Google doing this more than two years ago. This is not a hypothetical -- this is already happening. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveillance-toddler-photo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveil...
- alexey-salmin 2y ago
  A possibility of loosing access to a 20 years old Google account is quite disturbing. I know it's possible to setup a sync of Google drive to a local NAS, I wonder if the same can be done with Gmail archives. Then there's a problem of loosing access to all linked accounts on other services. What can be done about those, switching them to Proton mail.preemptively? Life without SSO is annoying.
  - calgoo 2y ago
    You can setup a forwarder that sends the email to another account, or just use a sync / download script/app.
  - dotancohen 2y ago
    I personally access my Gmail account through Thunderbird. My entire history, dating to April 2004, is in there.
  - romwell 2y ago
    > I wonder if the same can be done with Gmail archives. That's called "using an email client" to access email. The way it originally worked, you know, and still does[1]. I use Vivaldi browser, which has a built-in mail client[2]. You can use Mozilla Thunderbird[3], or (gasp) Outlook. All of them allow you to maintain a complete, offline, up-to-date copy of your mailbox, which you can export and back up if needs be. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Message_Access_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Message_Access_Protoc... [2] https://vivaldi.com/features/mail/ https://vivaldi.com/features/mail/ [3] https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/ https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/
    - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
      When my account was closed by an ISP, Thunderbird (unexpectedly for me) mirrored the lack of access to the IMAP folders and deleted all my local mail. Fortunately this was a temporary issue that I was able to recover from. Apps like imap-backup (https://github.com/joeyates/imap-backup https://github.com/joeyates/imap-backup) allow retaining IMAP data. In short, don't rely on TB to retain IMAP data, (like Dropbox) it is not a backup and IME will sync data losses, deleting local data if it is no longer accessible on the server. Take care.
      - romwell 2y ago
        >When my account was closed by an ISP, Thunderbird (unexpectedly for me) mirrored the lack of access to the IMAP folders and deleted all my local mail. Fortunately this was a temporary issue that I was able to recover from. This is absolutely ridiculous of Thunderbird. That said: 1. As you said, like Dropbox, it's a local mirror, not a backup. Someone gaining access to your email and mass-deleting everything would delete your local copy too. A an actual backup of Thunderbird mail files would accomplish a backup. 2. Did your ISP somehow allow Thunderbird to log into the mailbox and gave it empty content? Or did they delete content before killing IMAP sessions? If so, it's outright malicious. Otherwise, Thunderbird shouldn't have deleted anything. 3. Having an always-on desktop box with a mail client that gets all email once a week is a lazy way to decrease the chances of being affected by something like that. Having a script that copies mailbox data into another folder (named according to date) is, well, an actual backup.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Google.com/takeout It will dump your Gmail data into a mbox file, which is reasonably well supported.

3ln00b 2y ago

Already happened with me, my Amazon account is essentially locked. I changed my phone number and don't have access to my old number anymore and the existing number is apparently associated with some other Amazon account so they can't do anything about it. I stopped using Amazon altogether, I just request my brother to order stuff I want.

unixhero 2y ago
But get a burner phone and set up a new account then???
- 3ln00b 2y ago
  That was a burner phone number and they're illegal in my country now.
  - literalAardvark 2y ago
    No they're not. Like, sure, you might need to register your name on it, but that doesn't influence the outcome of signing up for Amazon with it.
  - esperent 2y ago
    I travel quite a bit and in most countries I'm required to show my passport to get a sim card. However, in several countries I've bought at least 4 or 5 sim cards by now (non tourist sims I mean) so there doesn't seem to be a limit on how many numbers you can have, they just want each number to be linked to a real person. Of course it may be different in some countries, but it's worth checking to be sure.
aussieguy1234 2y ago
I have an esim on my phone which has its own number. I only turn it on if some services asks for a phone number so I don't have to give my main number. Its on a cheap yearly plan, very low data and calls included but I won't be using these.

agilob 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computers_Don%27t_Argue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computers_Don%27t_Argue

yapyap 2y ago

google actually has done this with google images & a man who needed to text his doctor (sensitive) images

theshrike79 2y ago

Nope, Apple's system was based on a list of KNOWN CSAM hashes, not some AI algorithm. Also it mathematically required multiple local hits before anything would've been sent to Apple. And even at that point an actual human would've checked the image(s) (reduced quality versions) before any action is taken. So even if you would've managed to trigger the system multiple times on someone's phone with hash collisions that actually are pictures of kittens, the most you've done is slightly inconvenience a low-paid image checker in a cheap call center.

BlueTemplar 2y ago

What do you mean ? And in the actual justice system, there's a presumption of innocence. As for platforms, that's why in the EU big ones must engage with mediators. (Though IMHO it's better to just avoid them.)