5 ms·

I have a shelf full of histories of British science and engineering during WW2, so I feel like I have some remote idea of what being an engineer in an actual “w

by wrs 2y ago

I have a shelf full of histories of British science and engineering during WW2, so I feel like I have some remote idea of what being an engineer in an actual “wartime mode” is like. Think about, e.g., working in the lab trying to improve radar to be able to stop the daily bombing raids. It’s hard to imagine “wartime mode” as being an appropriate metaphor for any US company, other than as a sort of fantasy role play. I normally hate sports metaphors, but as an alternative to war, framing a tough business situation as “fourth down and 10” or whatever is a lot healthier way to think about it.

ddejohn 2y ago
The phrase "in the trenches" is used often, too. Always grosses me out.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bitwize 2y ago
If you're 4th and 10, that's when you cut your losses and attempt to kick a field goal so you can at least score something before the ball changes hands. (My wife took me to a Saints game for my birthday, so I'm actually learning stuff about the game as she is actually played.) I guess the equivalent in a software shop would be adjust expectations way lower and focus on what's achievable without running the team ragged and risking getting nothing done, postponing loftier goals until the team/business is in a better position to address them.
- jameshart 2y ago
  The football metaphor for ‘war mode’ really might be switching to playing defense. 4th and ten was last quarter. Right now, we don’t have possession and we’re trying to minimize the risk of conceding points. And maybe that means that now is the time for your star playmaking quarterback and receivers to be on the bench planning the play for when the pendulum swings back, and some different players should be center stage. Or maybe metaphors are just metaphors.
willturman 2y ago
Those books about British science/engineering during WW2 sound interesting. Any recommendations?
- wrs 2y ago
  I’m traveling so can’t look on the shelf, but off the top of my head I’d recommend The Wizard War: British Scientific Intelligence 1939-1945, R. V. Jones, 1978.
  - hi_hi 2y ago
    Amazing. I came here to specifically recommend another RV Jones book, the Most Secret War (https://www.amazon.com/Most-Secret-War-R-V-Jones/dp/0141042826 https://www.amazon.com/Most-Secret-War-R-V-Jones/dp/01410428...). I wasn't aware of his other book, so very much looking forward to reading this. I first read this book when I was starting out as a Dev some 20 years ago. It made a huge impression and is still relevant. Some things I remember off the top of my head. - It was the first time I came across Occams Razor. This really helped me understand how to approach debugging issues and generally dealing with problems. - It discusses the dangers of people who don't understand areas at a technical level being in charge of programs that depend on those technical things. Even more so when they have an inflated ego. Apparently Churchill was very good at seeing through this. - If I'm remembering correctly, there was a section about a practical joke someone played on their apartment neighbour that involved swapping out their pet tortoise for gradually larger versions. I very recently read a Roald Dahl childrens book to my kid which had this exact story. Now I have no idea if this actually happened as RV Jones wrote, or if it was a well known story at the time that Roald Dahl also adapted. - The dangers of making assumptions. I'm sure there are more. It's a worthwhile and highly entertaining read regardless.
    - wrs 2y ago
      It’s the same book, just a different title for the US version. (We don’t have a “Most Secret” over here.)
      - 2y ago
move-on-by 2y ago
I have an (actual) engineering buddy who occasionally has small fires flare up in the factory he works at. Ever since talking with him about it, I’m very much off put when someone at my cushy software company talks about ‘a fire’. No, some system is down or throwing errors- there is no fire.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  The executive reaction is the same as when a factory is on fire though. Whether we can’t produce due to system down or due to hazardous environment makes little difference.
  - move-on-by 2y ago
    With an actual fire (or hazardous environment) people’s lives are at risk and it makes a big difference. Hopefully those executives act accordingly or they’ll face jail time for putting their employees in harm’s way. That is not the same as being unable to produce. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/ex-coal-chief-gets-one-year-prison-term-for-mine-explosion https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/ex-coal-chief-gets-one-y...
    - settsu 2y ago
      It's funny because I read "executive reaction" as pertaining to an individual's physiological response, not as "the actions taken by the organization's leadership", which then gave "Executive Dysfunction" a whole new meaning for me...
- foobazgt 2y ago
  You're definitely not in mortal danger as a SWE, but FWIW, I've witnessed (2nd hand) datacenter servers literally catch on fire and entire datacenters go out because a critter got crispified on some power lines. Sometimes "the server's on fire" is metaphorical and sometimes it's literal. In the latter case, at least you can get some interesting pictures of the aftermath.
  - 2y ago
giantg2 2y ago
Most of what comes out of executives mouths is fantasy role play. It's always exaggerated to motivate.
hnbear 2y ago
I had an ex-marine boss leading QA and Prod support. Every time someone would go nuts about incidents being the end of the world, especially our biz users, he'd just ask if anyone was at risk of getting shot. If not, focus up and solve the problem, but no need to run causing extra fuss and stress.
- biosprout 2y ago
  had a similar experience early in my career in finance. 35 year old associate (old for the role), ex green beret, always so level, even when dealing with a lunatic VP. asked him why he was cool as the other side of the pillow: "nobody is shooting at me"
- jamesfinlayson 2y ago
  I like that - I've been at a company where a manager from a mining background would get panicked at a P2 incident, because in the mining industry a P2 incident meant that a person had been physically injured (and would probably be tomorrow's news) but where I was, a P2 meant some but not all revenue-generating systems were experiencing issues. I think he eventually figured out not to sweat it so much.
- esperent 2y ago
  I've used a similar analogy a few times - do we make medical software where someone will literally die if we don't fix this in the next few hours? No? Then chill the hell out and we'll get it fixed without giving ourselves stress related diseases. In a week or a month no one will remember this particular "emergency" but we'll all remember the general level of stress we felt on this team for years. I've said this out loud a few times. But I've said it quietly to myself far more often when someone is trying to make me feel stressed for no reason. It's very effective.
  - mewpmewp2 2y ago
    How would you handle something that is possible to put into monetary numbers, because technically certain amount of money could save a life. E.g. this incident cost us $5 million - this type of money could be used to save many lives.
mlhpdx 2y ago
The healthy way to frame it, in my opinion, is that it’s business as usual. I know that isn’t motivational (or fun) for a lot of people, but the pragmatism is something to always have in mind. Top-down influences have and always will drift from topic to topic and resources will follow. Demand for any given approach will wax and wane and wax again over a career. Often, some core fundamentals will seem in-volatile but even they aren’t. I try not to fight these tides, and just accept them. Sometimes ignoring them.
- CoastalCoder 2y ago
  I've been a developer for just under 30 years. One of the pleasant surprises in my skill development was learning how much I can ignore various fads, policies, and people.
kumarvvr 2y ago
Please do share some good ones, I am very interested in these sorts of stories.
szszrk 2y ago
Your comment reminded me instantly of book by PKD, Time out of joint. I think it shows very well the mental pressure of people trying to use science to stop a defeat at wartime. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/698034.Time_Out_of_Joint https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/698034.Time_Out_of_Joint
boogieknite 2y ago
"It's like (violent_thing) on (hard_drug)!" sadly i think im numb to ppl speaking this way. genuinely: thanks for the reminder this language is inappropriate
pjc50 2y ago
> being an engineer in an actual “wartime mode” is like. Think about, e.g., working in the lab trying to improve radar to be able to stop the daily bombing raids. This is slightly OT, but I believe wartime in the UK and US forced a number of cultural changes towards egalitarianism and what would nowadays be called "diversity" because things had to actually work. Being upper class in the UK would not save you from German bombers. The normally exclusionary system had to let a gay man break codes and a woman design Spitfire engines because those were the best people actually available and the outcome mattered more than saving face. This also got us the postwar settlement of universal healthcare and education.
- downut 2y ago
  "universal healthcare" Not in the US. Only in BigCorps.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > The normally exclusionary system had to let a gay man break codes and a woman design Spitfire engines because those were the best people actually available I don't know enough about Spitfire engines to comment, but is that true about Turing? I thought he kept his sexuality a secret.
  - jdiez17 2y ago
    The government definitely knew.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    Reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Shilling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Shilling with a bit of hyperbole.
- lazyant 2y ago
  Not arguing with your point but see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bamber_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bamber_Bridge

by wrs 2y ago

ddejohn 2y ago

The phrase "in the trenches" is used often, too. Always grosses me out.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

bitwize 2y ago

If you're 4th and 10, that's when you cut your losses and attempt to kick a field goal so you can at least score something before the ball changes hands. (My wife took me to a Saints game for my birthday, so I'm actually learning stuff about the game as she is actually played.) I guess the equivalent in a software shop would be adjust expectations way lower and focus on what's achievable without running the team ragged and risking getting nothing done, postponing loftier goals until the team/business is in a better position to address them.

jameshart 2y ago
The football metaphor for ‘war mode’ really might be switching to playing defense. 4th and ten was last quarter. Right now, we don’t have possession and we’re trying to minimize the risk of conceding points. And maybe that means that now is the time for your star playmaking quarterback and receivers to be on the bench planning the play for when the pendulum swings back, and some different players should be center stage. Or maybe metaphors are just metaphors.

willturman 2y ago

Those books about British science/engineering during WW2 sound interesting. Any recommendations?

wrs 2y ago
I’m traveling so can’t look on the shelf, but off the top of my head I’d recommend The Wizard War: British Scientific Intelligence 1939-1945, R. V. Jones, 1978.
- hi_hi 2y ago
  Amazing. I came here to specifically recommend another RV Jones book, the Most Secret War (https://www.amazon.com/Most-Secret-War-R-V-Jones/dp/0141042826 https://www.amazon.com/Most-Secret-War-R-V-Jones/dp/01410428...). I wasn't aware of his other book, so very much looking forward to reading this. I first read this book when I was starting out as a Dev some 20 years ago. It made a huge impression and is still relevant. Some things I remember off the top of my head. - It was the first time I came across Occams Razor. This really helped me understand how to approach debugging issues and generally dealing with problems. - It discusses the dangers of people who don't understand areas at a technical level being in charge of programs that depend on those technical things. Even more so when they have an inflated ego. Apparently Churchill was very good at seeing through this. - If I'm remembering correctly, there was a section about a practical joke someone played on their apartment neighbour that involved swapping out their pet tortoise for gradually larger versions. I very recently read a Roald Dahl childrens book to my kid which had this exact story. Now I have no idea if this actually happened as RV Jones wrote, or if it was a well known story at the time that Roald Dahl also adapted. - The dangers of making assumptions. I'm sure there are more. It's a worthwhile and highly entertaining read regardless.
  - wrs 2y ago
    It’s the same book, just a different title for the US version. (We don’t have a “Most Secret” over here.)
    - 2y ago

move-on-by 2y ago

I have an (actual) engineering buddy who occasionally has small fires flare up in the factory he works at. Ever since talking with him about it, I’m very much off put when someone at my cushy software company talks about ‘a fire’. No, some system is down or throwing errors- there is no fire.

Aeolun 2y ago
The executive reaction is the same as when a factory is on fire though. Whether we can’t produce due to system down or due to hazardous environment makes little difference.
- move-on-by 2y ago
  With an actual fire (or hazardous environment) people’s lives are at risk and it makes a big difference. Hopefully those executives act accordingly or they’ll face jail time for putting their employees in harm’s way. That is not the same as being unable to produce. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/ex-coal-chief-gets-one-year-prison-term-for-mine-explosion https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/ex-coal-chief-gets-one-y...
  - settsu 2y ago
    It's funny because I read "executive reaction" as pertaining to an individual's physiological response, not as "the actions taken by the organization's leadership", which then gave "Executive Dysfunction" a whole new meaning for me...
foobazgt 2y ago
You're definitely not in mortal danger as a SWE, but FWIW, I've witnessed (2nd hand) datacenter servers literally catch on fire and entire datacenters go out because a critter got crispified on some power lines. Sometimes "the server's on fire" is metaphorical and sometimes it's literal. In the latter case, at least you can get some interesting pictures of the aftermath.
- 2y ago

giantg2 2y ago

Most of what comes out of executives mouths is fantasy role play. It's always exaggerated to motivate.

hnbear 2y ago

I had an ex-marine boss leading QA and Prod support. Every time someone would go nuts about incidents being the end of the world, especially our biz users, he'd just ask if anyone was at risk of getting shot. If not, focus up and solve the problem, but no need to run causing extra fuss and stress.

biosprout 2y ago
had a similar experience early in my career in finance. 35 year old associate (old for the role), ex green beret, always so level, even when dealing with a lunatic VP. asked him why he was cool as the other side of the pillow: "nobody is shooting at me"
jamesfinlayson 2y ago
I like that - I've been at a company where a manager from a mining background would get panicked at a P2 incident, because in the mining industry a P2 incident meant that a person had been physically injured (and would probably be tomorrow's news) but where I was, a P2 meant some but not all revenue-generating systems were experiencing issues. I think he eventually figured out not to sweat it so much.
esperent 2y ago
I've used a similar analogy a few times - do we make medical software where someone will literally die if we don't fix this in the next few hours? No? Then chill the hell out and we'll get it fixed without giving ourselves stress related diseases. In a week or a month no one will remember this particular "emergency" but we'll all remember the general level of stress we felt on this team for years. I've said this out loud a few times. But I've said it quietly to myself far more often when someone is trying to make me feel stressed for no reason. It's very effective.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  How would you handle something that is possible to put into monetary numbers, because technically certain amount of money could save a life. E.g. this incident cost us $5 million - this type of money could be used to save many lives.

mlhpdx 2y ago

The healthy way to frame it, in my opinion, is that it’s business as usual. I know that isn’t motivational (or fun) for a lot of people, but the pragmatism is something to always have in mind. Top-down influences have and always will drift from topic to topic and resources will follow. Demand for any given approach will wax and wane and wax again over a career. Often, some core fundamentals will seem in-volatile but even they aren’t. I try not to fight these tides, and just accept them. Sometimes ignoring them.

CoastalCoder 2y ago
I've been a developer for just under 30 years. One of the pleasant surprises in my skill development was learning how much I can ignore various fads, policies, and people.

kumarvvr 2y ago

Please do share some good ones, I am very interested in these sorts of stories.

szszrk 2y ago

Your comment reminded me instantly of book by PKD, Time out of joint. I think it shows very well the mental pressure of people trying to use science to stop a defeat at wartime. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/698034.Time_Out_of_Joint https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/698034.Time_Out_of_Joint

boogieknite 2y ago

"It's like (violent_thing) on (hard_drug)!" sadly i think im numb to ppl speaking this way. genuinely: thanks for the reminder this language is inappropriate

pjc50 2y ago

> being an engineer in an actual “wartime mode” is like. Think about, e.g., working in the lab trying to improve radar to be able to stop the daily bombing raids. This is slightly OT, but I believe wartime in the UK and US forced a number of cultural changes towards egalitarianism and what would nowadays be called "diversity" because things had to actually work. Being upper class in the UK would not save you from German bombers. The normally exclusionary system had to let a gay man break codes and a woman design Spitfire engines because those were the best people actually available and the outcome mattered more than saving face. This also got us the postwar settlement of universal healthcare and education.

downut 2y ago
"universal healthcare" Not in the US. Only in BigCorps.
robertlagrant 2y ago
> The normally exclusionary system had to let a gay man break codes and a woman design Spitfire engines because those were the best people actually available I don't know enough about Spitfire engines to comment, but is that true about Turing? I thought he kept his sexuality a secret.
- jdiez17 2y ago
  The government definitely knew.
- pjc50 2y ago
  Reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Shilling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Shilling with a bit of hyperbole.
lazyant 2y ago
Not arguing with your point but see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bamber_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bamber_Bridge