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Linux dev swatted and handcuffed live during a development video stream
- smileson2 2y agoWell at least it isn't another Hans Reiser situation
- usui 2y ago> Unfortunately, the police seemingly have no idea who did it and acted based on a tip sent with an email. I understand the need to take anonymous tips seriously, but I mean come on... an email? I hope there was more than that. If I assume the counterfactual where someone's attempt to tip police was ignored and an incident results, the public will criticize the police undoubtedly. Still, at some point there needs to be a minimum for verifiable, trustworthy communication if such a tip results in swatting. If I effortlessly generate dozens of plausibly-sounding scenarios, tip off the police in intervals spaced far enough and automate it, when would the police start categorizing anonymous emails as noise?
- akira2501 2y agoSWAT doesn't have a lot to do. So it's going to be exceptionally difficult to establish a working "graduated response" system within that department. In reality there should be two separate sources of information that suggest a SWAT response is necessary before they're dispatched, otherwise, standard police response to verify the information first.
- entropie 2y ago> SWAT doesn't have a lot to do. Dood, thats not remotely SWAT. This isnt even some kind of special police. This is german normal police. And usually they are pretty damn overwhelmed by everything because they are horrible undestaffed.
- bbor 2y agoIf you committed that crime, the police would probably try to find you and stop you, not just give up on anonymous tips :) As you said, they're obligated to respond, as they have a monopoly on violence. How many people do you know who would get a threatening email about imminent violence and play it off because it's likely a fake? Perhaps some the most zen among us! The rest of us would almost definitely want to (hire mercenaries to) take reasonable steps to stop it. A few hours of police time in exchange for preventing a potential terrorist event seems like a fair trade, anyway...
- aceofspades19 2y agoI get lots of spam emails threatening all sorts of things, according to my spam email, Scotland Yard, the FBI & Secret Service are all after me if I don't give them my personal information. So yeah if I got a threatening email about imminent violence, I would probably assume its some sort of weird spam email and ignore it.
- eviks 2y agoGiven the fact that the police ignores a lot of real crimes (like this false reporting crime will just be ignored) just the fact that they're obligated doesn't explain anything > How many people do you know who would get a threatening email about imminent violence and play it off because it's likely a fake? That would be every single popular political pundit on social media (if you're not a stickler for "email"), then every celebrity, etc, so a huge number of people
- Sebb767 2y agoOf course an email is easy to fake, but you really have to put things in perspective: We, as internet regulars, hear of swatting quite often, but for your average police officer, this is probably an once-in-a-career type of event and therefore the threshold for believability is quite low. Also, as you pointed out, if it turns out to be a real situation, it will look horrible if the police knew of it beforehand. Even more, a victim in a situation that requires a swat team might have a quite limited ability to communicate, lowering the reasonable threshold even more. Lastly, there isn't really a measured response. If you think there might be an actual dangerous situation, sending a few normal officers to check it out is reckless at best and might actually make the situation worse, as the attacker is alerted of the impeding police response and the police doesn't have the ability to respond swiftly.
- wobfan 2y agoWhen I reported a person in my neighborhood for screaming about hurting people and herself for hours with open windows, I called the police (didn't find any email or something) and they wanted to know who I am, where I am and why I am there. At some point I felt like they're not trusting me. Why do they trust an email?
- amenhotep 2y agoThey can gather more information from you. They can't gather more information from an email. It forces a decision based on exactly what the message said and no more - and they'd presumably want more information in order to ignore it. For a closer comparison you'd want to call from a payphone, make your report, then hang up. I have no idea if this would actually work similarly but it is at least what people do in movies when they want to provoke a police response! And it does make sense.
- babypuncher 2y agoForgive my ignorance, but can the police not get the identity of the people calling these in from the phone companies? Swatting would be over very quickly if we just started handing out 5 year prison sentences to every moron who tries this.
- infamouscow 2y agoAre the police going to verify their identity? How are you going to verify that someone is not also committing identity theft?
- babypuncher 2y agoWell you just so happen to have a complete recording in their voice where they committed the crime. If they called 911 using a voice modulator then the call should have been ignored in the first place.
- infamouscow 2y agoTwo questions: 1. How the hell do you plan to tell the difference between some prankster using voice modulation and a genuine caller stuck in a situation with weird acoustics? Or are you too dense to realize that emergencies don't always happen in perfect sound conditions? 2. Are you seriously okay with giving police dispatchers godlike powers to decide if your desperate plea for help is "real enough" for them? And if they get it wrong and write you off as a scammer while you're bleeding out, I guess that's just tough luck, huh? Still feeling smug about your brilliant plan now?
- qayxc 2y agoIt's not only difficult to verify the identity from phone companies or ISPs (worst case you'd need a court order), depending on the nature of the report and the situation, it might also be straight up dangerous for the caller. Besides, it's pretty damn simple to just a stolen phone or compromised computer to do this sort of thing. If you really were to get the identity this way, you now likely have two victims instead of one...
- tombert 2y agoA part of me thinks that SWATting should be considered attempted murder (IANAL); you're sending in a bunch of heavily armed men into a house for no real reason, what the fuck do you think is going to happen? Maybe "murder" is a bit strong, but it certainly has led to people dying in the past, and it's not like "death" is a bizarre, unforeseeable consequence of sending in a dozen heavily armed people into an innocent person's house. If I shot a gun into the crowd in Times Square, and someone got hit and died, I don't think it'd be a very good defense to say "I was just trying to shoot into the crowd, I didn't mean to kill anyone!" Frankly, I don't get it, it's really not very funny, and carries a risk of jail time in the process.
- avidiax 2y agoMy understanding of US law is that if the police kill your SWATting victim, they will charge you with murder. It doesn't matter that you tricked someone else into pulling the trigger. Same thing can happen if your partner in crime dies.
- dylan604 2y agoSeems like SWATting investigations are a lot more effort than just claiming it as suicide by cop and calling it a day. So I'm slightly impressed that the requires effort option is taken at all
- hilux 2y agoSWATting lets unimportant and powerless people, who may never have got much attention in real life ... suddenly get LOTS of attention, which feels validating and good. Like many crappy things, it originated in the world of gaming.
- Sanzig 2y agoThe perpetrator of the fatal 2017 Wichita swatting pled guilty to manslaughter, so it does seem that the (American) legal system treats it as a homicide.
- thfuran 2y ago
- linotype 2y agoforget it
- blastonico 2y ago[flagged]
- DevopsQuestions 2y ago[flagged]
- noobermin 2y agoThere definitely are tensions and the rust bros are extreme drama lovers but swatting seems a bit extreme for that beef. The rowdy troll seems most likely, no?
- 2y ago
- qayxc 2y agoThe difference between swatting in the US and Germany is pretty shocking. No one was forced to the ground, the developer had a calm chat with the police and the whole incident didn't look all that terrifying. I loved how the police explained that the live stream had to be shut down due to an ongoing investigation, but he might resume it soon, because the issue might get resolved quickly. Still a horrible and dangerous thing to do to somebody, but I'm glad the police were calm, polite, and professional.
- declan_roberts 2y agoThat's because this wasn't a swat team.
- qayxc 2y agoHow do you know? We didn't see everyone involved and have no picture of the entire situation.
- trhway 2y agoThe door didnt flew in, so it wasn’t SWAT. And the guy was lucky he was programming and nod spreading butter on sandwich with a knife.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nine_k 2y agoSWAT = Special Weapons and Tactics. Which usually involves blasting out the door, jumping inside while covered with body armor and / or tactical shields, expecting unusually fierce resistance with military-grade weapons, etc. This is warranted in special cases, like storming a building held by terrorists. What was that is very regular tactics and barely any weapons. It was a polite visit by police expecting reasonable cooperation from the target person, not heavy armed resistance.
- 2y ago
- michaelteter 2y agoWhile less dangerous than a US SWATting event, it is still absurd that he was taken away for questioning. They could have made a reasonable observation of the scenario and then given him an invitation to come to the station at a given time the next day. Taking someone in shouldn’t happen unless there’s an obvious crime and/or the target had a police record which would suggest they were a threat or were likely to flee instead of coming for an interview the following day.
- dylan604 2y agoTalking about an amazing alibi though. Just play back the live stream and see it wasn't me. If only Shaggy had that kind of alibi.
- jsheard 2y agoLast year someone actually tried staging a livestream while they were committing a murder, to manufacture an alibi. It didn't work. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-64494847 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-64494847
- airhangerf15 2y ago> While less dangerous than a US SWATting event How? Unlike what the news would have you believe, police don't just start shooting willy nilly in America, and cops in his country do have firearms. Most people who get killed in US SWAT operations do so because they open fire on the cops. The best example is the Breonna Taylor. The media blatantly lied saying her and her partner were in bed initially. In reality, they announced, and had a pretty complex warrant based off of evidenced gathered from prison communications. Even the Wikipedia page is still biased saying her boyfriend fired a "warning shot" mistaking the police for intruders.
- more_corn 2y agoThe cops in the US absolutely do start shooting willy nilly. There are tons of stories of cops raiding the wrong house, shooting homeowners, their dogs. Police regularly use excessive force, shoot without sufficient reason, kill for no reason. If you think otherwise you’re not paying attention or you’re paying attention in an extremely selective way. Every swatting should be treated like it could have ended in a death.
- cassianoleal 2y ago> When I opened the door there was a team of police officers with their weapons drawn and what looked to me like Tasers. When I heard “hands out of my pockets” in the video, I was immediately handcuffed!!! I had seen about 10 police officers in front of and in our office, and it wasn't until the following day that neighbors reported that the whole street was full of about 10 (or more) emergency vehicles right up to the next intersection!!! about 10 police cars, 2 fire departments, 1 ambulance, an emergency doctor etc...!!! I do hope they investigate and find whomever was responsible for this email tip. At the very least I would want this person to repay the costs of this operation.
- lolinder 2y agoTo anyone else wondering: this comes from the dev's description of the episode in the YouTube comments section. Highly worth a read to get the whole story, it has information not in TFA. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIEwcTKUFCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIEwcTKUFCA
- richardboegli 2y agoDupe - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41532098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41532098
- dang 2y agoThat's true, but the other thread is pretty bad, plus was a couple days ago, so I guess we can leave them unmerged.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Jyaif 2y agoWebsite literally unreadable on mobile!
- ChrisArchitect 2y agoEarlier discussion: Linux kernel contributor swatted and handcuffed live on stream [video] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41532098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41532098
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- smsm42 2y agoIt boggles the mind that you can just send an email to the police and they'd act as if whoever is targeted by that email is in fact a dangerous criminal and they'd arrest them and subject them to all kinds of humiliation and harassment and mistreatment - just based on a single unsubstantiated email. I thought this idiocy is endemic only to the US police but it looks like German police is the same too? And people just accept it as normal? I mean kudos to German police not rushing in with guns drawn and not treating the scene like they are in the Battle of Falluja, but it is still fscking insane - why did they have to cuff him and subject him to a hour-long questioning at the station - what did it take them an hour to find out? Why is all this considered normal?
- lolinder 2y ago> I mean kudos to German police not rushing in with guns drawn and not treating the scene like they are in the Battle of Falluja, Sounds like the second half yes, but according to his story in the YouTube comments they did have weapons drawn (one being maybe a taser, but presumably the rest were firearms?): > Unsuspecting - I assumed someone else was missing or there had been a break-in - when I opened the door I was confronted by a good 10 police officers with drawn weapons and at least one with what looked to me like a Taser. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIEwcTKUFCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIEwcTKUFCA
- Marsymars 2y ago> It boggles the mind that you can just send an email to the police and they'd act as if whoever is targeted by that email is in fact a dangerous criminal and they'd arrest them and subject them to all kinds of humiliation and harassment and mistreatment - just based on a single unsubstantiated email. Well it kind of makes sense if you believe people are generally going to follow social norms and not make false accusations for no reasons. Like, all you have to do in a crowded theatre is shout "FIRE", and everyone acts as if there's a dangerous situation and everyone is subjected to being forced out of the theatre based on a single unsubstantiated shout. Or if you put your mind to it, there are any number of false, anonymous allegations one can make with large asymmetries between the effort to make the allegation and the effort required to clean up the situation.
- mxscho 2y agoAs can be seen from the comments, the person concerned probably felt that he was being treated disproportionately. Regardless of the fact that it would of course be better for the police if they were better able to recognize fake reports, I found the situation to be handled rather well. This can be an example of how the average police interaction can go in a country where not every second citizen is expected to carry weapons or pose other threats. Being in handcuffs for a bunch of seconds in this unclear situation is not the fault of the police, but the swatter.
- lolinder 2y agoHe was greeted at the door by 10 police officers with their weapons drawn who immediately ordered his hands out of his pockets and handcuffed him. That's about how a swatting episode in the US usually goes. I see no evidence in the dev's description that would suggest that this incident was less likely to lead to a death than the typical police response in the US.
- mxscho 2y agoI agree that just from the picture side, this looks very similar. However, in Germany, police is taught in a very different way than US: They are only allowed to use firearms as a last resort, and only to use it after non-lethal measures like the taser have been used beforehand. They are also asked to only use it to wound, not to kill suspects. In contrast, US police is e.g. trained to shoot at the center of mass as they argue that anything else would be more difficult under stressful circumstances. I see the situation itself as the problem (that fake reports can lead to it), but realistically, there is probably no way to avoid them compeletely, so just looking at the way how such interactions are going on from there on can make the difference as well.
- lolinder 2y agoJust to be clear what we're talking about: I can find evidence of exactly three swatting deaths ever, with one being a heart attack, not gunfire. So two cases of police opening fire due to a prank call in the entire US in the entire history of swatting. Those cases are unacceptable, but how confident are you that it's not that Germany hasn't had one yet by dint of much smaller population sizes and therefore fewer police calls, rather than different police training? Again: these ten police officers had their weapons drawn.
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- bigiain 2y ago[flagged]
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- jdlyga 2y agoI never understood the appeal of streaming. Sure, you get lots of positive attention. And most people are honest, friendly, and kind. But the more attention you get, the more you attract bad actors and jerks. There's a reason why many celebrities don't read social media comments or reviews, and why they have security.
- namaria 2y agoSeconded. I don't want to veer into victim blaming here but live streaming from my home where I have a publicly registered business address sounds to me like a bad idea.
- spwa4 2y agoI wonder how long it'll take for the government to order this video taken down.
- wobfan 2y agoI couldn't think of a reason why any executive institution is legally allowed to take the video down.
- prometheon1 2y ago[flagged]
- lithos 2y agoOh gross an unexitable popup begging for email. (Assuming it's just cut off by cellphone proportions).
- emptiestplace 2y agoIt got me too - rotating to landscape helped.