10 ms·

Would this attract more migrants? (e.g. I could work for a year for 10k, or I could go to Sweden and get 34k) They've probably thought through all the ways to

Would this attract more migrants? (e.g. I could work for a year for 10k, or I could go to Sweden and get 34k) They've probably thought through all the ways to exploit this, just curious.

11235813213455 2y ago
it probably works just once per individual at least
mhh__ 2y ago
Given the profound lack of higher order thinking that led to Europe's experiment along these lines over the last decade or so I wouldn't be so sure if they have.
- cscurmudgeon 2y ago
  For more context: https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/systems-thinking-and-the-cobra-effect https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/systems-thinking-and-the-cobra-e...
hn_user82179 2y ago
The article addresses this. In Sweden in particular, a lot of the migrants are from countries in unrest. Last year's reward was $1k and exactly 1 person took it. The article said 'experts don't expect there to be a substantial increase in claiming the offer' with the increase to $35k which is surprising to me, but I suppose still makes sense as $35k won't make Damascus any safer.
- modeless 2y ago
  Wouldn't it be possible to leave Damascus with $35k though?
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    They'll have forfeited the right to refugee status anywhere else and would have to migrate as an economic migrant. Which generally takes either six figures or decades, AFAICT.
    - modeless 2y ago
      Who enforces that? Is there an international registry of refugees?
      - Arnt 2y ago
        Your passport, which contains stamps that form a record. And there is a European database too.
        rdtsc 2y ago
        My acquaintance managed to sneak in multiple times, “losing” their passport if caught, then pretending not to understand fingerprinting instructions and smudging them on purpose until the police gave up. With face biometrics probably won’t work today. Just saying that a stamp in a passport is necessary a full proof solution.
        petre 2y ago
        Right. They throw away their documents, so EU countries have to document and fingerprint them again and also keep a database, preferably a shared one. Otherwise they just conveniently move from one country to another as there are close to no border checks in the Schengen area. Probably why Germany has reintroduced "temporary" border checks after the Solingen stabbing attack. Sweeden still has checks in place at the bridge to Denmark.
    - __m 2y ago
      On what ground? If they come back from a country at war they can’t legally send them back (by EU law)
  - throwawayffffas 2y ago
    If you are in Sweden you have already left Damascus
- rKarpinski 2y ago
  The top 5 countries migrants to Sweden came from in 2023 ... India, Poland, Germany, Syria, China. https://www.statista.com/statistics/522136/sweden-immigration-by-country-of-origin/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/522136/sweden-immigratio...
  - __rito__ 2y ago
    But Indian, German, and Chinese are the legal ones right? Maybe even Polish, too.
    - stark98 2y ago
      > Maybe even Polish, too. What do you mean by that? Both Poland and Sweden are members of the EU.
    - petre 2y ago
      They came through those countries, not necessarily being citizens of those countries.
    - ywvcbk 2y ago
      Well Indians and Chinese need all kinds of visas and permits. Probably not a thing in Sweden but in Italy there were a few scandals recently about illegal/semi legal Indian and other migrants working in sweatshops and farms. Poles on the other hand have the legal right to come and work in Sweden with no legal restrictions whatsoever.
      - __rito__ 2y ago
        Illegal immigration from India has ramped up in very recent years. About Poles, that makes sense.
    - hulitu 2y ago
      > But Indian, German, and Chinese are the legal ones right? Maybe even Polish, too. What do you mean ? He said: "a lot of the migrants are from countries in unrest.". /s
add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
Per the article this is from the party that "began as a neo-Nazi movement in the 1980s but rebranded itself as a conservative party, with curbing migration at the center of it platform." I would imagine it's ideological demagoguery and not concerned with serious critical analysis of long term effects.
- Saturnial22 2y ago
  [flagged]
- benterix 2y ago
  These are two separate things: (1) the party being right-wing, (2) the immigration or more precisely the lack of integration causing problems for the Swedish society. The previous left-wing government that basically said "we're taking everybody" had good intentions but extremely poor execution. Merkel's Germany didn't do much better tbh. In any case, when migrants don't integrate, and you fail to make them do so, you can either ignore the problem hoping it goes away or try to solve it in a way that is human and causes as little suffering as possible.
  - fifilura 2y ago
    Yes, but it is an explanation for how the debate landed. Not everything in politics is pure logic, there are lots of emotions too. Not aligning with neo-nazis is one of those emotions.
- paulddraper 2y ago
  Does this kind of criticism apply to US parties? Like a pro-slavery party?
- rdtsc 2y ago
  > from the party that "began as a neo-Nazi movement in the 1980s Good find. By the same token though, the Democratic Party in US was the white supremacist party in the 19th century. There is probably ideological demagoguery involved with them as well.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Would this attract more migrants? (e.g. I could work for a year for 10k, or I could go to Sweden and get 34k) They've probably thought through all the ways to exploit this, just curious.

11235813213455 2y ago

it probably works just once per individual at least

mhh__ 2y ago

Given the profound lack of higher order thinking that led to Europe's experiment along these lines over the last decade or so I wouldn't be so sure if they have.

cscurmudgeon 2y ago
For more context: https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/systems-thinking-and-the-cobra-effect https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/systems-thinking-and-the-cobra-e...

hn_user82179 2y ago

The article addresses this. In Sweden in particular, a lot of the migrants are from countries in unrest. Last year's reward was $1k and exactly 1 person took it. The article said 'experts don't expect there to be a substantial increase in claiming the offer' with the increase to $35k which is surprising to me, but I suppose still makes sense as $35k won't make Damascus any safer.

modeless 2y ago
Wouldn't it be possible to leave Damascus with $35k though?
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  They'll have forfeited the right to refugee status anywhere else and would have to migrate as an economic migrant. Which generally takes either six figures or decades, AFAICT.
  - modeless 2y ago
    Who enforces that? Is there an international registry of refugees?
    - Arnt 2y ago
      Your passport, which contains stamps that form a record. And there is a European database too.
      - rdtsc 2y ago
        My acquaintance managed to sneak in multiple times, “losing” their passport if caught, then pretending not to understand fingerprinting instructions and smudging them on purpose until the police gave up. With face biometrics probably won’t work today. Just saying that a stamp in a passport is necessary a full proof solution.
      - petre 2y ago
        Right. They throw away their documents, so EU countries have to document and fingerprint them again and also keep a database, preferably a shared one. Otherwise they just conveniently move from one country to another as there are close to no border checks in the Schengen area. Probably why Germany has reintroduced "temporary" border checks after the Solingen stabbing attack. Sweeden still has checks in place at the bridge to Denmark.
  - __m 2y ago
    On what ground? If they come back from a country at war they can’t legally send them back (by EU law)
- throwawayffffas 2y ago
  If you are in Sweden you have already left Damascus
rKarpinski 2y ago
The top 5 countries migrants to Sweden came from in 2023 ... India, Poland, Germany, Syria, China. https://www.statista.com/statistics/522136/sweden-immigration-by-country-of-origin/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/522136/sweden-immigratio...
- __rito__ 2y ago
  But Indian, German, and Chinese are the legal ones right? Maybe even Polish, too.
  - stark98 2y ago
    > Maybe even Polish, too. What do you mean by that? Both Poland and Sweden are members of the EU.
  - petre 2y ago
    They came through those countries, not necessarily being citizens of those countries.
  - ywvcbk 2y ago
    Well Indians and Chinese need all kinds of visas and permits. Probably not a thing in Sweden but in Italy there were a few scandals recently about illegal/semi legal Indian and other migrants working in sweatshops and farms. Poles on the other hand have the legal right to come and work in Sweden with no legal restrictions whatsoever.
    - __rito__ 2y ago
      Illegal immigration from India has ramped up in very recent years. About Poles, that makes sense.
  - hulitu 2y ago
    > But Indian, German, and Chinese are the legal ones right? Maybe even Polish, too. What do you mean ? He said: "a lot of the migrants are from countries in unrest.". /s

add-sub-mul-div 2y ago

Per the article this is from the party that "began as a neo-Nazi movement in the 1980s but rebranded itself as a conservative party, with curbing migration at the center of it platform." I would imagine it's ideological demagoguery and not concerned with serious critical analysis of long term effects.

Saturnial22 2y ago
[flagged]
benterix 2y ago
These are two separate things: (1) the party being right-wing, (2) the immigration or more precisely the lack of integration causing problems for the Swedish society. The previous left-wing government that basically said "we're taking everybody" had good intentions but extremely poor execution. Merkel's Germany didn't do much better tbh. In any case, when migrants don't integrate, and you fail to make them do so, you can either ignore the problem hoping it goes away or try to solve it in a way that is human and causes as little suffering as possible.
- fifilura 2y ago
  Yes, but it is an explanation for how the debate landed. Not everything in politics is pure logic, there are lots of emotions too. Not aligning with neo-nazis is one of those emotions.
paulddraper 2y ago
Does this kind of criticism apply to US parties? Like a pro-slavery party?
rdtsc 2y ago
> from the party that "began as a neo-Nazi movement in the 1980s Good find. By the same token though, the Democratic Party in US was the white supremacist party in the 19th century. There is probably ideological demagoguery involved with them as well.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]