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>scrum elevates them from total failure to unproductive but fumbling in a good direction. Where's the evidence for this? I kind of agree on big corporate not b

by carlmr 2y ago

>scrum elevates them from total failure to unproductive but fumbling in a good direction. Where's the evidence for this? I kind of agree on big corporate not being able to achieve great development speed. But they had a system before scrum, and I've yet to see scrum not completely destroying every metric of development achievement, whether it's throughput, latency or iteration speed.

roenxi 2y ago
The evidence is in the company choosing scrum then sticking with it. They believe it helped. > I've yet to see scrum not completely destroying every metric of development achievement, whether it's throughput, latency or iteration speed. It is too hard to argue from vague anecdotes, so I am resisting the urge to try. However, I will say that if that is a demonstrable thing and there was no upside then it would be surprising that scrum sticks as well as it does.
- carlmr 2y ago
  >scrum then sticking with it. They believe it helped. Not necessarily. It's well known that there are many psychological biases in favor of keeping the status quo. Whether it's the sunk cost fallacy, the escalation of commitment or the endowment effect. Humans tend to stick with bad decisions way longer than rational. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment#/search https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment#/sear... I think the problem here is we've had a huge trend in switching to scrum, but then people stick with failed scrum because it's the new status quo. Switching back to waterfall can't be sold by consultants. Even if it would help.
- ath3nd 2y ago
  > However, I will say that if that is a demonstrable thing It's demonstratable: https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/05/agile_failure_rates/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/05/agile_failure_rates/ > and there was no upside I'd go on a sarcastic rant here, but it's hard to stop myself. Don't read further if exaggerations upset you. Sure, there are upsides, but they are hardly benefitting software engineering speed, quality, stability and developer happiness. The biggest upsides are for management: - keeping the engineers under tight control by one of their business types (PO) - making sure long-term thinking (like "what am I doing in this company") is suppressed by having a horizon of only 2 weeks in which you are supposed to give all you have to hit an arbitrary deadline. And then you start again! /s - scrum has the beautiful effect of making engineers feeling either like kindergartners: 1. what did you do yesterday, Timmy? (standup) 2. Let's play with some cards, kids (planning poker) 3. Let's review what we learned last two weeks, children, and let's see what progress you made on your bean drawings (retros and demos) How can you want a salary increase or question big man POs decisions, when you've just been acting like a kid for the last two weeks? Don't get me wrong, I do see the benefit of retros, demos, and some kind of planning and sync, but the way scrum just dumps it on you and prescribes you how to do it is just humiliating. Adults can sync, plan, retrospect and demonstrate what they did on their own volition and don't need some framework to tell them when and how, and two parental figures (the PO and Scrum master) to tell them what to do and when. > The evidence is in the company choosing scrum then sticking with it. They believe it helped. Many people also believe the Earth is flat and are sticking with that belief.
  - ramblerman 2y ago
    > How can you want a salary increase or question big man POs decisions, when you've just been acting like a kid for the last two weeks? I think you just provided me with a small epiphany...
  - carlmr 2y ago
    >two parental figures (the PO and Scrum master) Another great point. The overhead is insane. 2 people that don't directly contribute work output per team.
    - rerdavies 2y ago
      Could it possible be that.... you're not doing it right. lol It is another great point. But it is another great point about how the process in your organization could be improved. Nothing says you have to have two parental figures. And why on earth would you have a dedicated scrum master?! It's just not a job that should be requiring that much labor. Just have one part-time scrum master in the entire company who periodically audits and coaches teams who aren't doing the process right. Or coaches teams through the initial learning curve, as required. In scrum and non-scrum processes that I have worked with, the PO comes from the marketing/sales team. On the theory that, if anyone has the pulse of what customers in aggregate actually want, it's going to be them. Also a part time job. But essential for injecting some realistic sense of "value" into the development planning equation. The direct contribution of a good PO is to make sure that the team is contributing work output to features that customers actually want. A good PO contributes enormously to team productivity.
      - lpapez 2y ago
        > And why on earth would you have a dedicated scrum master?! It's just not a job that should be requiring that much labor. At most places I worked, having a dedicated Scrum Master on the project was the norm. Yet another case of "it's not Scrum's fault everyone is doing it wrong".
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    About that article. We absolutely learned something since the 90s that was beneficial. Corporative software projects now have about a two times higher chance of success than they had back then. Also, we almost certainly learned that thing from Agile. There is no other credible source. But the article has a clear point that places where people say they are practicing Agile has an even lower success rate than the overall one from the 90s. So it seems that the actual lesson from the Agile manifest was only learned by the people who don't claim to practice it.
rerdavies 2y ago
Compared to what, exactly? I can't imagine you could say anything like that if you had experience with any of the heavy development processes that preceded scrum/agile methodologies.

by carlmr 2y ago

roenxi 2y ago

The evidence is in the company choosing scrum then sticking with it. They believe it helped. > I've yet to see scrum not completely destroying every metric of development achievement, whether it's throughput, latency or iteration speed. It is too hard to argue from vague anecdotes, so I am resisting the urge to try. However, I will say that if that is a demonstrable thing and there was no upside then it would be surprising that scrum sticks as well as it does.

carlmr 2y ago
>scrum then sticking with it. They believe it helped. Not necessarily. It's well known that there are many psychological biases in favor of keeping the status quo. Whether it's the sunk cost fallacy, the escalation of commitment or the endowment effect. Humans tend to stick with bad decisions way longer than rational. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment#/search https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment#/sear... I think the problem here is we've had a huge trend in switching to scrum, but then people stick with failed scrum because it's the new status quo. Switching back to waterfall can't be sold by consultants. Even if it would help.
ath3nd 2y ago
> However, I will say that if that is a demonstrable thing It's demonstratable: https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/05/agile_failure_rates/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/05/agile_failure_rates/ > and there was no upside I'd go on a sarcastic rant here, but it's hard to stop myself. Don't read further if exaggerations upset you. Sure, there are upsides, but they are hardly benefitting software engineering speed, quality, stability and developer happiness. The biggest upsides are for management: - keeping the engineers under tight control by one of their business types (PO) - making sure long-term thinking (like "what am I doing in this company") is suppressed by having a horizon of only 2 weeks in which you are supposed to give all you have to hit an arbitrary deadline. And then you start again! /s - scrum has the beautiful effect of making engineers feeling either like kindergartners: 1. what did you do yesterday, Timmy? (standup) 2. Let's play with some cards, kids (planning poker) 3. Let's review what we learned last two weeks, children, and let's see what progress you made on your bean drawings (retros and demos) How can you want a salary increase or question big man POs decisions, when you've just been acting like a kid for the last two weeks? Don't get me wrong, I do see the benefit of retros, demos, and some kind of planning and sync, but the way scrum just dumps it on you and prescribes you how to do it is just humiliating. Adults can sync, plan, retrospect and demonstrate what they did on their own volition and don't need some framework to tell them when and how, and two parental figures (the PO and Scrum master) to tell them what to do and when. > The evidence is in the company choosing scrum then sticking with it. They believe it helped. Many people also believe the Earth is flat and are sticking with that belief.
- ramblerman 2y ago
  > How can you want a salary increase or question big man POs decisions, when you've just been acting like a kid for the last two weeks? I think you just provided me with a small epiphany...
- carlmr 2y ago
  >two parental figures (the PO and Scrum master) Another great point. The overhead is insane. 2 people that don't directly contribute work output per team.
  - rerdavies 2y ago
    Could it possible be that.... you're not doing it right. lol It is another great point. But it is another great point about how the process in your organization could be improved. Nothing says you have to have two parental figures. And why on earth would you have a dedicated scrum master?! It's just not a job that should be requiring that much labor. Just have one part-time scrum master in the entire company who periodically audits and coaches teams who aren't doing the process right. Or coaches teams through the initial learning curve, as required. In scrum and non-scrum processes that I have worked with, the PO comes from the marketing/sales team. On the theory that, if anyone has the pulse of what customers in aggregate actually want, it's going to be them. Also a part time job. But essential for injecting some realistic sense of "value" into the development planning equation. The direct contribution of a good PO is to make sure that the team is contributing work output to features that customers actually want. A good PO contributes enormously to team productivity.
    - lpapez 2y ago
      > And why on earth would you have a dedicated scrum master?! It's just not a job that should be requiring that much labor. At most places I worked, having a dedicated Scrum Master on the project was the norm. Yet another case of "it's not Scrum's fault everyone is doing it wrong".
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  About that article. We absolutely learned something since the 90s that was beneficial. Corporative software projects now have about a two times higher chance of success than they had back then. Also, we almost certainly learned that thing from Agile. There is no other credible source. But the article has a clear point that places where people say they are practicing Agile has an even lower success rate than the overall one from the 90s. So it seems that the actual lesson from the Agile manifest was only learned by the people who don't claim to practice it.

rerdavies 2y ago

Compared to what, exactly? I can't imagine you could say anything like that if you had experience with any of the heavy development processes that preceded scrum/agile methodologies.