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These types of posts are often more harfmul than helpful. ArchLinux already has proper installation instructions and those who cannot follow them aren't recomme

These types of posts are often more harfmul than helpful. ArchLinux already has proper installation instructions and those who cannot follow them aren't recommend to run it. The main installation issues the ArchLinux forum sees is from people following outdated third party installation guides.

semiinfinitely 2y ago
these days I ask chatgpt for help to install arch instead of using the docs which are designed as a gate keeping mechanism to discourage the uninitiated by making them feel stupid. chatgpt just tells you how to do and turns out its really not that hard.
- scandox 2y ago
  I really think that's unfair. The install docs are quite long but they try to give people options. It's not gate keeping to provide a lot of detail.
  - semiinfinitely 2y ago
    I actually agree that the Arch docs are absolutely excellent in their level of detail, precision and helpfulness. I also think its possible for them to simultaneously be a gate keeping mechanism and stand by what I said
    - dingnuts 2y ago
      well if you stand by them, do you plan to present actual evidence of the alleged conspiracy or are you just making these statements to troll?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - swasheck 2y ago
        isn’t gatekeeping inherently subjective? it’s going to be hard to present objective evidence to a subjective expression of opinion.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        Jtsummers 2y ago
        Gatekeeping is an active effort to keep others out of something (out of a field, away from information, etc.). Where is the active effort to keep people out of Arch when the documentation is made available for free?
        kelnos 2y ago
        I think you're talking past the person you're replying to. Not sure why you use the word "active", as it's unnecessary. Gatekeeping is just erecting barriers of whatever sort in an effort to keep people out. Making install documentation that is very very detailed to the point that some people will be turned off by it and go away could very much be considered gatekeeping. Even if that documentation is objectively good documentation. Obviously we can't know the motives of the people who wrote the documentation. But it's fair to look at the docs and believe that the authors are engaging in gatekeeping. That belief might be wrong, but there's no evidence either way. Unless the authors have come out and said something about this topic, of course. And even then, it depends on if you believe what they've said. It's subjective. (I personally have no dog in this race. I don't use or particularly care about Arch; Debian suits me just fine. My main experience with Arch is positive, though: their wiki is amazing, and when I search for answers for various questions about Linux and Linux desktop software, the Arch wiki comes up very often, and is nearly always helpful.)
        vetinari 2y ago
        > Making install documentation that is very very detailed to the point that some people will be turned off by it and go away could very much be considered gatekeeping. In my times, we called such people lazy. No gatekeeping needed.
  - mlindner 2y ago
    The install wiki is full of outdated information that causes people to install outdated and old methods of doing things. So I wouldn't advise people to use it, other than the fact there's no other option.
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago
      I find that hard to believe. I've always found the Arch Wiki to be excellent and very up to date. Do you have any examples of articles which document outdated ways to do things? If you have found incorrect information, please edit the wiki to improve it.
  - imtringued 2y ago
    I haven't had that feeling. In fact, installing Arch Linux is easy. The hardest part is the bad partition editor UX and that you need to have an understanding of how UEFI booting works. There is also the problem of GRUB being a terrible bootloader, but that is another story for another day.
- calepayson 2y ago
  [This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68z11VAYMS8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68z11VAYMS8) was a godsend when I first got started and I recommend it for anyone installing arch.
Levitating 2y ago
Just as an example, this guide suddenly assumes that "yay" is installed. Even though AUR helpers like yay aren't officially recommended by ArchLinux and also aren't trivial to install.
- mlindner 2y ago
  The design decisions around AUR befuddle me to this day. It's utterly arcane in how to use it. Or rather it feels like it wasn't designed at all and simply evolved. I highly recommend people to use "yay" and similar helpers that make a lot of the problems simply go away.
  - m463 2y ago
    I've always thought it was more for developers. You can get something into AUR easily, and it is basically the basis for a real package. So low effort for developers. Meanwhile I think the high effort for users of AUR is an appropriate barrier to entry. Every dangerous thing I've seen in life benefits from good situational awareness, and all the "learn makepkg" stuff plus "can't be root" seems to match the learning effort to the risk.
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    I think it's great. You clone a git repository which is amazing since you can just pull in new commits to get updates. Then you read and understand the PKGBUILD. When you are satisfied that it's not malware, you basically just run makepkg and it does everything. Then you vote on the package so that it's more likely to be included in the official repositories in the future.
    - hughesjj 2y ago
      > Then you vote on the package so that it's more likely to be included in the official repositories in the future. Out of curiosity, do you count community as official?
      - matheusmoreira 2y ago
neilv 2y ago
I think the post title is understated, since I had a related thought: it's not hard to install most Linux distros on a laptop, and this post will intimidate people. This post is about how one person did it on hard mode, to get it just how they want it. That's fine. I suspect that most of the people on HN could pretty easily install Debian, without documentation (just write this file raw to a USB flash drive, boot the laptop from it, and mostly accept the defaults from the menus): https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/debian-12.7.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/d...
- rahimnathwani 2y ago
  The article isn't about how to install a Linux distribution on your laptop. It's about installing Arch on your laptop. The fact that installing Debian is easier is true, but also irrelevant.
  - neilv 2y ago
    The Debian example is relevant to my point that I think this article will intimidate people who don't already know Linux (but over the years have heard that it's a pain to get working on laptops, etc.).
- nxicvyvy 2y ago
  That's just a normal arch install, no hard mode about it.
  - drtgh 2y ago
    Launch the guided archinstall is the comfortable mode, 2/3 of the article are done automatically through option selects at the beginning, and one installs Arch within two minutes. A configuration file can be saved also. The archinstall command/script doesn't (yet?) implement disk sector-size selection and some of the other relevant details of the article, but the introduction of this installation mode within Arch makes life easier, besides do not intimidate people. It is a notoriously big leap in the direction of usability, IMHO this is a path to follow (one of the paths to follow). PS: The article uses yay to install the DE. I think the article should have commented the difference between Core, Extra and AUR packages.
m463 2y ago
nonsense. I learned the arch linux installation from the arch web page. I've stepped through it probably 50 times over the years to install various systems. It becomes this "choose your own adventure" style installation, and you quite quickly get worn down by the branches and start making expedient choices over more involved choices. So many of my laptop installs have had simple partitions, systemd boot, and on and on and ending with a text login. Each choice for a more capable system would require extensive learning and the risk of having to start over. These instructions take you through complex choices like secure boot, LVM, choosing a desktop, a graphical boot and more. This installation guide gives you a fully functioning system (like you would get with a full distribtion). The author had to learn from a fully-functional manjaro install, and then walked us through the same thing with arch. Having a full desktop os with arch in the end is a really wonderful goal, and might be worth the risk of having problems with the install (which I seem to get with arch anyway)
megatron2009 2y ago
The post by itself is not harmful, since it can be that the person posted it for their own blog because they like to write for themselves. Someone now finding it and using it for their own benefit/loss, that's a problem.
- Zecc 2y ago
  > ~~Someone~~ *An LLM training bot* now finding it and using it for their own benefit/loss, that's a problem. I believe you meant.
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
Most issues on any Linux forum are people using outdated/unofficial guides or going off the beaten path for god knows why.
heywoodlh 2y ago
Interestingly, I’m not sure why more people don’t use archinstall, which is provided with the official live ISO: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Archinstall https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Archinstall I have no issue doing Arch installations by hand, but sometimes it’s nice to save time when you don’t have any special configurations. That being said, knowing how to do installations manually has been pivotal in me knowing how to recover borked Linux systems.
collyw 2y ago
Isn't there a GUI installer for Arch. I am sure I am capable of installing it but I don't feel the need to get that involved.
- retrochameleon 2y ago
  No. There are distributions of Arch like EndeavourOS that provide an installer.
- Levitating 2y ago
  There is an official install script now
m1keil 2y ago
so we should stop making blog posts about anything that is hard/custom/outside of the blessed path?

semiinfinitely 2y ago

these days I ask chatgpt for help to install arch instead of using the docs which are designed as a gate keeping mechanism to discourage the uninitiated by making them feel stupid. chatgpt just tells you how to do and turns out its really not that hard.

scandox 2y ago
I really think that's unfair. The install docs are quite long but they try to give people options. It's not gate keeping to provide a lot of detail.
- semiinfinitely 2y ago
  I actually agree that the Arch docs are absolutely excellent in their level of detail, precision and helpfulness. I also think its possible for them to simultaneously be a gate keeping mechanism and stand by what I said
  - dingnuts 2y ago
    well if you stand by them, do you plan to present actual evidence of the alleged conspiracy or are you just making these statements to troll?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - swasheck 2y ago
      isn’t gatekeeping inherently subjective? it’s going to be hard to present objective evidence to a subjective expression of opinion.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - Jtsummers 2y ago
        Gatekeeping is an active effort to keep others out of something (out of a field, away from information, etc.). Where is the active effort to keep people out of Arch when the documentation is made available for free?
        kelnos 2y ago
        I think you're talking past the person you're replying to. Not sure why you use the word "active", as it's unnecessary. Gatekeeping is just erecting barriers of whatever sort in an effort to keep people out. Making install documentation that is very very detailed to the point that some people will be turned off by it and go away could very much be considered gatekeeping. Even if that documentation is objectively good documentation. Obviously we can't know the motives of the people who wrote the documentation. But it's fair to look at the docs and believe that the authors are engaging in gatekeeping. That belief might be wrong, but there's no evidence either way. Unless the authors have come out and said something about this topic, of course. And even then, it depends on if you believe what they've said. It's subjective. (I personally have no dog in this race. I don't use or particularly care about Arch; Debian suits me just fine. My main experience with Arch is positive, though: their wiki is amazing, and when I search for answers for various questions about Linux and Linux desktop software, the Arch wiki comes up very often, and is nearly always helpful.)
        vetinari 2y ago
        > Making install documentation that is very very detailed to the point that some people will be turned off by it and go away could very much be considered gatekeeping. In my times, we called such people lazy. No gatekeeping needed.
- mlindner 2y ago
  The install wiki is full of outdated information that causes people to install outdated and old methods of doing things. So I wouldn't advise people to use it, other than the fact there's no other option.
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    I find that hard to believe. I've always found the Arch Wiki to be excellent and very up to date. Do you have any examples of articles which document outdated ways to do things? If you have found incorrect information, please edit the wiki to improve it.
- imtringued 2y ago
  I haven't had that feeling. In fact, installing Arch Linux is easy. The hardest part is the bad partition editor UX and that you need to have an understanding of how UEFI booting works. There is also the problem of GRUB being a terrible bootloader, but that is another story for another day.
calepayson 2y ago
[This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68z11VAYMS8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68z11VAYMS8) was a godsend when I first got started and I recommend it for anyone installing arch.

Levitating 2y ago

Just as an example, this guide suddenly assumes that "yay" is installed. Even though AUR helpers like yay aren't officially recommended by ArchLinux and also aren't trivial to install.

mlindner 2y ago
The design decisions around AUR befuddle me to this day. It's utterly arcane in how to use it. Or rather it feels like it wasn't designed at all and simply evolved. I highly recommend people to use "yay" and similar helpers that make a lot of the problems simply go away.
- m463 2y ago
  I've always thought it was more for developers. You can get something into AUR easily, and it is basically the basis for a real package. So low effort for developers. Meanwhile I think the high effort for users of AUR is an appropriate barrier to entry. Every dangerous thing I've seen in life benefits from good situational awareness, and all the "learn makepkg" stuff plus "can't be root" seems to match the learning effort to the risk.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  I think it's great. You clone a git repository which is amazing since you can just pull in new commits to get updates. Then you read and understand the PKGBUILD. When you are satisfied that it's not malware, you basically just run makepkg and it does everything. Then you vote on the package so that it's more likely to be included in the official repositories in the future.
  - hughesjj 2y ago
    > Then you vote on the package so that it's more likely to be included in the official repositories in the future. Out of curiosity, do you count community as official?
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago

neilv 2y ago

I think the post title is understated, since I had a related thought: it's not hard to install most Linux distros on a laptop, and this post will intimidate people. This post is about how one person did it on hard mode, to get it just how they want it. That's fine. I suspect that most of the people on HN could pretty easily install Debian, without documentation (just write this file raw to a USB flash drive, boot the laptop from it, and mostly accept the defaults from the menus): https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/debian-12.7.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/d...

rahimnathwani 2y ago
The article isn't about how to install a Linux distribution on your laptop. It's about installing Arch on your laptop. The fact that installing Debian is easier is true, but also irrelevant.
- neilv 2y ago
  The Debian example is relevant to my point that I think this article will intimidate people who don't already know Linux (but over the years have heard that it's a pain to get working on laptops, etc.).
nxicvyvy 2y ago
That's just a normal arch install, no hard mode about it.
- drtgh 2y ago
  Launch the guided archinstall is the comfortable mode, 2/3 of the article are done automatically through option selects at the beginning, and one installs Arch within two minutes. A configuration file can be saved also. The archinstall command/script doesn't (yet?) implement disk sector-size selection and some of the other relevant details of the article, but the introduction of this installation mode within Arch makes life easier, besides do not intimidate people. It is a notoriously big leap in the direction of usability, IMHO this is a path to follow (one of the paths to follow). PS: The article uses yay to install the DE. I think the article should have commented the difference between Core, Extra and AUR packages.

m463 2y ago

nonsense. I learned the arch linux installation from the arch web page. I've stepped through it probably 50 times over the years to install various systems. It becomes this "choose your own adventure" style installation, and you quite quickly get worn down by the branches and start making expedient choices over more involved choices. So many of my laptop installs have had simple partitions, systemd boot, and on and on and ending with a text login. Each choice for a more capable system would require extensive learning and the risk of having to start over. These instructions take you through complex choices like secure boot, LVM, choosing a desktop, a graphical boot and more. This installation guide gives you a fully functioning system (like you would get with a full distribtion). The author had to learn from a fully-functional manjaro install, and then walked us through the same thing with arch. Having a full desktop os with arch in the end is a really wonderful goal, and might be worth the risk of having problems with the install (which I seem to get with arch anyway)

megatron2009 2y ago

The post by itself is not harmful, since it can be that the person posted it for their own blog because they like to write for themselves. Someone now finding it and using it for their own benefit/loss, that's a problem.

Zecc 2y ago
> ~~Someone~~ *An LLM training bot* now finding it and using it for their own benefit/loss, that's a problem. I believe you meant.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

Most issues on any Linux forum are people using outdated/unofficial guides or going off the beaten path for god knows why.

heywoodlh 2y ago

Interestingly, I’m not sure why more people don’t use archinstall, which is provided with the official live ISO: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Archinstall https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Archinstall I have no issue doing Arch installations by hand, but sometimes it’s nice to save time when you don’t have any special configurations. That being said, knowing how to do installations manually has been pivotal in me knowing how to recover borked Linux systems.

collyw 2y ago

Isn't there a GUI installer for Arch. I am sure I am capable of installing it but I don't feel the need to get that involved.

retrochameleon 2y ago
No. There are distributions of Arch like EndeavourOS that provide an installer.
Levitating 2y ago
There is an official install script now

m1keil 2y ago

so we should stop making blog posts about anything that is hard/custom/outside of the blessed path?