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You're correct except for one word: "lucrative". To this day, almost two decades after I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive s
by lapcat 2y ago
You're correct except for one word: "lucrative".
To this day, almost two decades after I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt.
Even if I had completed my degree, though, philosophy PhDs aren't particularly lucrative. Tenured professors at major universities do ok, but the road to getting tenure-track jobs and then tenure is littered with the bodies of grad students.
I don't think starry-eyed 21 year olds deciding what to do are much different from starry-eyed 17 year olds deciding what to do.
It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors.
- zozbot234 2y ago> It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors. That's a pipeline problem. What the U.S. actually has is a severe bottleneck in available places at medical schools and for residency training.
- xrd 2y agoLet's do note that on that graph which mapped a variety of increased costs, the only thing that increased faster than college costs was the cost of medical. That's connected to the shortage of doctors. Regulatory capture isn't just an issue with higher ed.
- BJones12 2y agoWhat the U.S. actually has is a group of people intent on keeping their doctor wages high by limiting supply through regulation and bottleneck creation.
- ProllyInfamous 2y agoAs a med school dropout (best decision of my life), were I to "go back" to early college: I would have instead pursued a BSN (which my college offered!), to set myself up into eventually becoming a nurse practitioner. That way, if I decided to not complete graduate school, I'd still have an applicable role/job within medicine. Were I to have graduated that program, I also would have been able to practice much earlier (albeit limited scope, per US State). Instead, what does an uncredentialled Chemistry Bachelor do after dropping out of medical school? ...I became an electrician, which allowed me to help people without sacrificing my lifestyle. If your goal also includes "make substantial sums of money," I always recommend to preMeds they consider all the different ways someone can make money helping people without having to sacrifice your entire early adulthood. The majority of my medschool classmates refer to me as "the dumbest smart guy they know," but in confidence several have expressed jealousy at not having to work so much (for IMHO so little, as physicians). Just cogs in an overly-complex, wealth-extracting machine...
- qazxcvbnmlp 2y ago> the dumbest smart guy they know When you’re smart enough to understand the consequences the of your “dumb decisions” and have the EQ to navigate the aftermath.
- ProllyInfamous 2y agoIt's incredible realizing that I have two decades of work experience, and have peers that have been "in the field" for less than a few years! To each his own. I think higher education in America is primarily designed to degrate and beat students into submission. As I've heard repeated elsewhere, the road to tenured PhD is paved with grad-student bodies.
- iwishiknewlisp 2y agoNurse practitioners are the overused. If you are on medicaid, at least in my state, you are almost guranteed to be seen by a nurse practitioner rather than an actual pyschiatrist. Even if you aren't on medicaid, which medicaid is usually better than any other marketplace insurance for selection of providers and service, getting seen by a nurse practitioner is very common. Additionally, while many may be knowledgable about the medications they prescribe, I have had nurse practitioners prescribe me medication they didn't even know existed, as in during my session I asked for a specific medication based on a personal recomendation from a freind in the field, they didn't know what the medication was and looked up on google and then prescribed it to me. There are good nurse practitioners, but they simply should not be prescribing long term pyschiatric medication with the level of schooling they have. It takes 2 years to become a nurse, and 3 years to become a nurse practitioner. Additional certification is required to prescribe certain medications, but even then the amount of training and classes a nurse practitioner will take to understamd medications is very small compared to a psychiatrist. It's absurd. NP's have been the solution to psychiatist shortage and it seems no one cares. Most likely, because anyone who knows is zombified by SSRIs by shit NPs or is in the medical field so their vision is already clouded by bias. Nurse takeover is a joke. Anybody with 2-3 years of schooling should be relagated to changing bedpans and putting in IVs. Not functioning as psuedo doctors.
- labcomputer 2y agoThat’s only because doctors collude to limit the number of available residency places. I programmers were smart, they would: 1. Lobby the government to prohibit anyone from practicing programming without a license. 2. Limit the number of licenses granted each year
- BurningFrog 2y agoFortunately, we don't have the social skills to make that happen.
- inglor_cz 2y agoAlso, the vast majority of software bugs are annoying at worst, with no death potential. Powers that be would react a lot more aggressively if stack overflows routinely led to bodies on the pavement.
- cheese_van 2y ago<That’s only because doctors collude to limit the number of available residency places.> Available residency slots are dictated by the funding made available through the Medicare program and ultimately Congress.
- adharmad 2y agoOut of curiosity, why cannot hospitals fund residency slots on their own with some riders (the resident should work in the same hospital for x years)? It seems odd that the medical profession is not willing to invest in the training of the next generation of professionals without government help.
- downrightmike 2y agoIt isn't a problem, it is a feature the AMA wants to have.
- fny 2y agoIn addition, you must complete a four year degree in whatever before going to medical school.
- inglor_cz 2y agoThis is really a weird requirement and most other places in the world don't have it, without suffering any setbacks when it comes to outcomes of treatments. Imagine that every programmer would have to study, say, Latin for 4 years before being allowed to code.
- dgoldstein0 2y agoAgreed. It might make some sense to require undergrad chemistry and biology for med school applicants but presumably that could be squeezed into 2 years of undergrad. Possibly a customized curriculum could teach it faster or as part of med school.
- bookofjoe 2y agoMine was in political science.
- j45 2y agoIn Canada there are some universities which allow exceptional students to apply after the first 2 years.
- IOT_Apprentice 2y agoIsn’t a limited pipeline intentional? Keeping the supply constraints keep wages higher.
- Cheer2171 2y agoYou self-funded a philosophy PhD with loans at age 21?
- lapcat 2y agoI'm talking about deciding at age 21 to go to grad school, like deciding at age 17 to go to undergrad.
- zamfi 2y agoWell, the OP did say “the bulk of” — some people, like you, are surely carrying debt for non-lucrative degrees. But the pipeline of lawyers, doctors, MBAs, etc. is quite a bit larger than self-pay philosophy PhDs, and a large fraction of those professional degrees are full-freight, $70k/year (plus living expenses!) of pure debt.
- lapcat 2y agoNot all lawyers and doctors are the same. Consider public defenders. And physician compensation can vary dramatically depending on whether they're a general practitioner or specialist, rural or urban, etc. Ironically, the ones we need the most are paid the least. Of course, that's assuming students finish their degrees and get jobs. Plenty of people drop out of school, and they don't get refunds! Law students fail to pass the bar, etc.
- zamfi 2y agoYes, and indeed, this is exactly the argument used by the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, in which public defenders / nonprofit lawyers / rural nonprofit doctors’ loans are written forgiven after 10 years of public service so they are not saddled with a lifetime of debt they can’t pay off due to choosing careers in public service. You’re in a supposedly “lucrative” career with a high debt load, but choosing not to pursue the typical high-income pathway. That program has many gotchas, but at least this reflects a recognition that debt creates incentives that society may not want.
- ghaff 2y agoFor Law, it's not just about not passing the bar. It's about getting into a top 10 law school and getting a top clerkship. And then getting into a top firm. Yeah, some people don't end up on that train and do OK but it's probably not a great ROI even if they pass the checkmarks.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago> Ironically, the ones we need the most are paid the least. That isn’t ironic at all. If they were paid more, we wouldn’t have a shortage.
- Telemakhos 2y ago> I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt In humanities fields, if the department thinks you belong in the program, they pay you to attend. They'll give you fellowships, TAships, and RAships. If they don't give you those, they're telling you not to attend. This is a harsh truth.
- lapcat 2y agoThat's not generally true. I attended a state university, and the department simply didn't have the funding to pay for its graduate students. However, I did in fact receive some TAships and lectureships while I was there, and even a dissertation fellowship. They didn't pay well though.
- DiscourseFan 2y ago>That's not generally true. I attended a state university, and the department simply didn't have the funding to pay for its graduate students. I mean, maybe? I know a number of state schools, certainly not all of them, but plenty that can afford paid spots for PhD students in the humanities that are certainly enough for someone to support themselves on. It doesn't pay as well, nearly as well, as jobs that humanities student with a good GPA from a good university can get in the private sector, but its not bad at all.
- lapcat 2y agoSome departments have money, and some don't. Simple as that. I find it very odd that people are trying to deny my experience here.
- DiscourseFan 2y agoWe're wondering if you were perhaps mislead somewhat, because in our experience its quite rare for a department not to have any funded PhDs with stipends.
- jldugger 2y ago> Tenured professors at major universities do ok, but the road to getting tenure-track jobs and then tenure is littered with the bodies of grad students. I'm reminded of that quote from Interstellar: "I never really fully considered the possibility that I wasn't the one."