5 ms·

The bulk of education debt in the U.S. is not about undergrad degrees in English literature or the like. By and large, it gets incurred either for lucrative po

The bulk of education debt in the U.S. is not about undergrad degrees in English literature or the like. By and large, it gets incurred either for lucrative postgrad degrees (MBA, law, medical etc.) or for earning degrees at "non-traditional" for-profit colleges.

TeaBrain 2y ago
Almost 60% of U.S. undergraduate students take out either federal or private loans and there are 5x as many undergraduate students as graduate students in the U.S. For those downvoting: 54% of US graduate students take out student loans, while around 55% of US undergraduate students take out loans. The average undergraduate student loan debt is around $29000, while the average debt for graduate school borrowers is $71000. Given that there are five times as many undergraduate students as graduate students and given that a greater number of undergraduate students take out loans, the average graduate school debt would have to be nearly $150k to be greater than the undergraduate debt. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/average-student-loan-debt-graduate-school?msockid=2375d0d1d7b4611437bbc2a0d69160d1 https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/avera... https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-student-loan-debt-statistics/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-student... https://www.cnn.com/cnn-underscored/money/average-student-loan-debt https://www.cnn.com/cnn-underscored/money/average-student-lo... https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/average-student-loan-debt-graduate-school?msockid=2375d0d1d7b4611437bbc2a0d69160d1 https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/avera...
- lapcat 2y ago
  I think the OP is referring to the number of dollars rather than the number of students.
  - TeaBrain 2y ago
    Of course it was based on the number of dollars, but based on which figures? It was an assertion conjured out of thin air. If there are five times as many undergrad students as grad students and a similar percentage of grad students had to take out student loans, then this would mean that students are incurring on average five times more debt for graduate school. This is without taking into consideration that a far higher percentage of US graduate students are international students.
    - lapcat 2y ago
      It looks like graduate debt was approaching the majority and could in fact be a majority in 2024: "If these trends continue, graduate loan disbursements may exceed undergraduate disbursements in the next few years." https://sites.ed.gov/ous/files/2023/08/OCE_GraduateDebtReport202308.pdf https://sites.ed.gov/ous/files/2023/08/OCE_GraduateDebtRepor...
      - TeaBrain 2y ago
        You're conflating current disbursements with the outstanding debt, which is what the original assertion was on. Either way it is looked at though, their assertion is wrong.
        lapcat 2y ago
        > You're conflating current disbursements with the outstanding debt No, I was just googling for stats, and that's what I was able to find. Here's something else though: "46% of federal student loan debt belonged to graduate student borrowers in 2017." https://educationdata.org/average-graduate-student-loan-debt https://educationdata.org/average-graduate-student-loan-debt
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  > while the average debt for graduate school borrowers is $71000. That figure would be heavily skewed by medical school students.
lapcat 2y ago
You're correct except for one word: "lucrative". To this day, almost two decades after I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt. Even if I had completed my degree, though, philosophy PhDs aren't particularly lucrative. Tenured professors at major universities do ok, but the road to getting tenure-track jobs and then tenure is littered with the bodies of grad students. I don't think starry-eyed 21 year olds deciding what to do are much different from starry-eyed 17 year olds deciding what to do. It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors.
- zozbot234 2y ago
  > It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors. That's a pipeline problem. What the U.S. actually has is a severe bottleneck in available places at medical schools and for residency training.
  - xrd 2y ago
    Let's do note that on that graph which mapped a variety of increased costs, the only thing that increased faster than college costs was the cost of medical. That's connected to the shortage of doctors. Regulatory capture isn't just an issue with higher ed.
  - BJones12 2y ago
    What the U.S. actually has is a group of people intent on keeping their doctor wages high by limiting supply through regulation and bottleneck creation.
    - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
      As a med school dropout (best decision of my life), were I to "go back" to early college: I would have instead pursued a BSN (which my college offered!), to set myself up into eventually becoming a nurse practitioner. That way, if I decided to not complete graduate school, I'd still have an applicable role/job within medicine. Were I to have graduated that program, I also would have been able to practice much earlier (albeit limited scope, per US State). Instead, what does an uncredentialled Chemistry Bachelor do after dropping out of medical school? ...I became an electrician, which allowed me to help people without sacrificing my lifestyle. If your goal also includes "make substantial sums of money," I always recommend to preMeds they consider all the different ways someone can make money helping people without having to sacrifice your entire early adulthood. The majority of my medschool classmates refer to me as "the dumbest smart guy they know," but in confidence several have expressed jealousy at not having to work so much (for IMHO so little, as physicians). Just cogs in an overly-complex, wealth-extracting machine...
slt2021 2y ago
there is a difference in prospects of payback/ROI between Harvard MBA and University of South Podunk MBA. they are the same though for the federal student loan program. same with law degrees
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  My Harvardlaw Lawyerbro literally ended a family dinner argument by telling Littlelawyerbro "which law school did you attend? UT? So then not Harvard?" In this particular conversation Harvardbro was obviously and factually incorrect, but his pompous rhetoric usually gets everybody else to silence themselves (not in awe). Interestingly, Harvardbro only got accepted into the two schooltypes you mentioned (and no 2nd tiers).
gruez 2y ago
Source?

TeaBrain 2y ago

Almost 60% of U.S. undergraduate students take out either federal or private loans and there are 5x as many undergraduate students as graduate students in the U.S. For those downvoting: 54% of US graduate students take out student loans, while around 55% of US undergraduate students take out loans. The average undergraduate student loan debt is around $29000, while the average debt for graduate school borrowers is $71000. Given that there are five times as many undergraduate students as graduate students and given that a greater number of undergraduate students take out loans, the average graduate school debt would have to be nearly $150k to be greater than the undergraduate debt. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/average-student-loan-debt-graduate-school?msockid=2375d0d1d7b4611437bbc2a0d69160d1 https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/avera... https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-student-loan-debt-statistics/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-student... https://www.cnn.com/cnn-underscored/money/average-student-loan-debt https://www.cnn.com/cnn-underscored/money/average-student-lo... https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/average-student-loan-debt-graduate-school?msockid=2375d0d1d7b4611437bbc2a0d69160d1 https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/avera...

lapcat 2y ago
I think the OP is referring to the number of dollars rather than the number of students.
- TeaBrain 2y ago
  Of course it was based on the number of dollars, but based on which figures? It was an assertion conjured out of thin air. If there are five times as many undergrad students as grad students and a similar percentage of grad students had to take out student loans, then this would mean that students are incurring on average five times more debt for graduate school. This is without taking into consideration that a far higher percentage of US graduate students are international students.
  - lapcat 2y ago
    It looks like graduate debt was approaching the majority and could in fact be a majority in 2024: "If these trends continue, graduate loan disbursements may exceed undergraduate disbursements in the next few years." https://sites.ed.gov/ous/files/2023/08/OCE_GraduateDebtReport202308.pdf https://sites.ed.gov/ous/files/2023/08/OCE_GraduateDebtRepor...
    - TeaBrain 2y ago
      You're conflating current disbursements with the outstanding debt, which is what the original assertion was on. Either way it is looked at though, their assertion is wrong.
      - lapcat 2y ago
        > You're conflating current disbursements with the outstanding debt No, I was just googling for stats, and that's what I was able to find. Here's something else though: "46% of federal student loan debt belonged to graduate student borrowers in 2017." https://educationdata.org/average-graduate-student-loan-debt https://educationdata.org/average-graduate-student-loan-debt
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
> while the average debt for graduate school borrowers is $71000. That figure would be heavily skewed by medical school students.

lapcat 2y ago

You're correct except for one word: "lucrative". To this day, almost two decades after I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt. Even if I had completed my degree, though, philosophy PhDs aren't particularly lucrative. Tenured professors at major universities do ok, but the road to getting tenure-track jobs and then tenure is littered with the bodies of grad students. I don't think starry-eyed 21 year olds deciding what to do are much different from starry-eyed 17 year olds deciding what to do. It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors.

zozbot234 2y ago
> It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors. That's a pipeline problem. What the U.S. actually has is a severe bottleneck in available places at medical schools and for residency training.
- xrd 2y ago
  Let's do note that on that graph which mapped a variety of increased costs, the only thing that increased faster than college costs was the cost of medical. That's connected to the shortage of doctors. Regulatory capture isn't just an issue with higher ed.
- BJones12 2y ago
  What the U.S. actually has is a group of people intent on keeping their doctor wages high by limiting supply through regulation and bottleneck creation.
  - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
    As a med school dropout (best decision of my life), were I to "go back" to early college: I would have instead pursued a BSN (which my college offered!), to set myself up into eventually becoming a nurse practitioner. That way, if I decided to not complete graduate school, I'd still have an applicable role/job within medicine. Were I to have graduated that program, I also would have been able to practice much earlier (albeit limited scope, per US State). Instead, what does an uncredentialled Chemistry Bachelor do after dropping out of medical school? ...I became an electrician, which allowed me to help people without sacrificing my lifestyle. If your goal also includes "make substantial sums of money," I always recommend to preMeds they consider all the different ways someone can make money helping people without having to sacrifice your entire early adulthood. The majority of my medschool classmates refer to me as "the dumbest smart guy they know," but in confidence several have expressed jealousy at not having to work so much (for IMHO so little, as physicians). Just cogs in an overly-complex, wealth-extracting machine...

slt2021 2y ago

there is a difference in prospects of payback/ROI between Harvard MBA and University of South Podunk MBA. they are the same though for the federal student loan program. same with law degrees

ProllyInfamous 2y ago
My Harvardlaw Lawyerbro literally ended a family dinner argument by telling Littlelawyerbro "which law school did you attend? UT? So then not Harvard?" In this particular conversation Harvardbro was obviously and factually incorrect, but his pompous rhetoric usually gets everybody else to silence themselves (not in awe). Interestingly, Harvardbro only got accepted into the two schooltypes you mentioned (and no 2nd tiers).

gruez 2y ago

Source?